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Thread: The Truth about concussion (and other aggro)

  1. #1

    The Truth about concussion (and other aggro)

    NOTE(admins!): Please sticky this thread(ie library)! I think there is something of a consensus here that it would be very beneficial to sticky it.

    All of what pertains to the following was logged, which will catch any possibility of error below. naturally my tests will be done in a very unprofessional manner. Heals were withheld except on gullerback who needed DOT heals, which are extremely low aggro anyway. A turn test is when two people stand within the melee range of mob, puller being on aggro, wizard being outside of proximity and both kept roughly stationary. `Turn` is when mob, uneffected by proximity(push makes this difficult,hence rune) returns to the original person having been concussioned off of aggro. edit - both people are attempted to be sqeezed onto the same coordinate position before seeing who is aggrod.

    Case #1: Does concussion work when resisted?

    Location- Qeynos Hills
    Mob- Guard Nash

    Shwiggy/Sole's Video: http://vectorequilibrium.com/misc/concusstest.avi

    ~My Test~
    Zone- Qeynos Hills
    Mob- Guard Nash

    A gnome wizard was taken to Q Hills and aggrod Guard Nash via a weak melee attack. I proceeded to stand on his head, and cast Draught of Ro. I then gained aggro; casted 3 concussions and Guard Nash switched to the gnome wizard. We absconded. In the next case, I repeated the process of standing directly on top of him, but casted strike of solusek and this took 9 concussions to switch guard nash.
    Conclusion: I can now hope to conclude that, without a doubt, the concussion spell works even when resisted, to the full extent. This question should be answered for all wizards now and forever, without need for dispute. I intend to post screens/logs to amend the validity of this test, should it be needed.

    Case #2: Does concussion give negative aggro?

    Location- Maiden's Eye
    Mob- Gorgangas

    Gorgangas were aggrod via proximity by clerico. First case, SOS was used to turn gorganga. Mob was concussioned 9 times in order to turn the gorganga - then killed. Second case, mob pulled, gorganga concussioned 20 times, stopped and SOS. 7 concs turned the gorganga. Repeated 3 times per case.
    Conclusion: Concussions cannot bring your aggro below a certain level, assumedly 0. this level would be 2 concussions worth of aggro.

    Case #3: Does a duration stun give more aggro than an instant stun?

    Location- Maiden's
    Mob- Gorgangas

    Gorgangas were pulled in the regular method described above. In the first instance, telekin was used and a turn test was performed with the gorganga. 5 concussions were used to turn the gorganga. The same was repeated with draught of thunder; 5 concussions were used to turn the gorganga. A draught of ro was used similarly, 3 concussions turned the gorganga.
    Conclusion: The stun component of a POP nuke is worth 2 concussions worth of aggro, while the damage portion is worth around 3. The stun portion's duration is irrelevent to the magnitude of its aggro.

    Case #4: Does a total resist produce more aggro?

    Location- Maiden's
    Mob- Gorgangas

    Gorgangas were pulled as described. In the first instance, a tears of marr was cast on the gorganga and 3 waves were not resisted. 5 concussions removed the aggro. In a later instance, resists were instead present and 5 concussions again removed aggro.
    Conclusion: Resists are not relevent to aggro generated by damage spells, or are not significantly relevent enough to be noticed.

    Case #5: How does rain aggro work?

    Location- Maiden's
    Mob- Gorgangas

    Gorgangas were pulled as described. Instead of using a standard turn test from melee but not proximity aggro, I nuked from range and ping-ponged the gorganga. Positions for turning were redone, and 3 concussions were needed in order to turn the gorganga. In the next case, rains were allowed to land 3 waves and this time 5 concussions were needed to turn the gorganga.
    Conclusion: The first hit of a rain works normally as a DD would, though the next two waves produce 3 times less aggro per wave than the first wave. With a damage focus of fury and the above 9 concussions to a sos, a rain is ~85% the aggro for the same damage you're doing as a SOS.

    (additional tests)
    Case #6: Do criticals produce additional aggro?

    Location- Maiden's
    Mob- Gorgangas

    An initial gorganga was pulled with the normal method. 3 concussions were used to turn the aggro from 1 draught. The next gorganga was pulled identically, the hit landed for critical damage, and 3 concussions were used to turn the mob.

    Case #7: How big is rune aggro?

    Location- Maiden's
    Mob- Gorgangas

    Gorgangas were again pulled and 4 concussions removed the aggro from rune.

    Case #8: Is spellshield big aggro?

    Location/Mob- Maiden Gorgangas

    Gorgangas were pulled, while spellshield was recasted repeatedly and clicked off before each refresh, 10 spellshields were not enough to turn the gorganga and the test was given up on.

    Case #9: How does SOM aggro work?

    Gorgangas were pulled in the above method. In the first case, 9 concs were used to turn the gorganga, second 8, third 5, fourth 10, and fifth 5. The 4th and 5th SOM hit for within 100 damage of eachother though the aggros were widely varied.
    Conclusion: SOM produces random aggro, but this aggro may not be based on the amount of damage the spell does. It may be that SOM produces aggro that does not correspond with the damage done, though the possibility to partial resists was present.

    Case #10: Does Sword of Xuzl or Call of Xuzl Summoning Give Aggro?

    Gorgangas in seperate instances were pulled identicle to the standard pull method which attempts to reduce proximity aggro to the minimum. In the sword of xuzl cast, one draught was used and three concussions turned the mob. In the second case, two draughts were used and a call of xuzl, in this case six concussions were needed to turn the mob.
    Conclusion: Swords of Xuzl appear to give little or minimal aggro.

    The logs will be forthcoming especially if requested / as I get to finding and cutting them out of this log file. Hopefully this is useful, and perhaps even libraried, as it is useful. All of this was done to ensure that it is not ultimately disputable, logs are available. As long as there's much doubt on the issue, or people not revealing their own sources of information, there could never be a common understanding.

    If anyone has an issue with these tests, I suggest either clarification is requested on anything(for instance, if you did so-and-so wrong), or suggestion on how to better redo the test is offered. Be specific, and there is no reason to be an asshole on this thread. We are not here to bash ideas into eachother but rather to attempt to end the dispute over wizard aggro which is prevailant and thus unresolved with unbiased testing. The aim is to know the truth, not to create the `truth`.

    credit - The following people have brought you the tests: Malicia, Sole, Holly, Devast, Istari, Xible, Grep, and Shwiggy of the Kane Bayle server.
    Last edited by Istari; May 15th, 2004 at 04:16 PM.
    Istari, Wizard

    The Aggro Test Thread

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  2. #2
    I WANT VOICE GRAFT
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    very nicely put together

  3. #3
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    Thank you for the fine analysis!

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    Gullerback was aggrod via proximity by a cleric.
    aka the cleric had 0 aggro, but was on the hate list. Don't know what the lowest "aggro" you can have is, but if all the cleric had was prox aggro of course it's still going to be aggroed on you since you're the only one that actually damaged it. Have another wizard SoS it, then you SoS twice, then start concussioning (with all resists) and note what happens.

  5. #5
    Kinky Euro
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    great effort there, but one thing immediately jumped at me...
    Gullerback is undead, so he will always attack who is standing closest, no?
    Just a thought. I'd come up with a living mob that's magic immune to test on but my mind is fried atm (at work)

  6. #6
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    Went to the overthere and just tested some things on Dragoon V'Resh. Both of these were done with *0* damage done to the mob. Yes he's not 100% magic resistant, so I repeated the process until I actually got a resist on concussion. On a side note...greater fetter with a -30 resist adj got more resists than concussion.

    Test #1 - While rooted

    Started out with my 64 ranger casting snare and getting him snared, then greater fettered on my 65 wizard. Flux staffed until he turned towards me. Casted concussion, resisted, he turned towards the ranger.

    Test #2 - While snared/kited

    If I only had a small amount of aggro over the ranger, the dragoon would still go after the ranger if he was closer, ***so I flux staffed him until he stayed on me even with the ranger right next to him***. Casted concussion, resisted, he turned on the ranger and started beating on him.

    ----------------------------------------

    Concussion works even when resisted, why do we keep bringing this up? The reason people think it doesn't is because of the fubar way they made aggro/hate lists in the game with decaying damage aggro and first spell effect rampage and prox aggro and everything else.
    Last edited by Malakriss; August 21st, 2003 at 02:56 AM.

  7. #7
    I WANT VOICE GRAFT
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    aka the cleric had 0 aggro, but was on the hate list. Don't know what the lowest "aggro" you can have is, but if all the cleric had was prox aggro of course it's still going to be aggroed on you since you're the only one that actually damaged it.
    actualy that isnt how proximity agro works


    proximity agro continues to build hate while the hate decay aids the wizzy

    Gullerback was aggrod via proximity by a cleric. I moved into position behind gullerback in his melee radius as to not take proximity aggro.

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    Went to the overthere and just tested some things on Dragoon V'Resh. Both of these were done with *0* damage done to the mob. Yes he's not 100% magic resistant, so I repeated the process until I actually got a resist on concussion. On a side note...greater fetter with a -30 resist adj got more resists than concussion.
    Was Prolly Decaying Hate, not Concussion working through Resist.


    From my Experience a resisted Concussion wont work.
    Simple ...
    Sometimes you don´t even need to cast Concussion.
    Just wait the few Secs , then the Mob will turn away because Aggro decayed.
    So if its resisted it looks as it may have worked ... but
    it was only the normal Aggro decay.

    I use Concussion only if i Overnuke (i enjoy that as i have
    Epic) to get Mob off me before EpicSkin is down.

    Best way to test ... Nuke HARD (aka 4 or 5 Draughts) and
    then measure the amount of Concs to get Mob off.

    That would do the Analysis more acurately ... but the Original Poster did a good Job to analyse it =)

  9. #9
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    its not a case of aggro decayed, its usually a case of someone else has got higher aggro. And as soon as u nuke again u can jump right to the top of the aggro list again.

  10. #10
    I am all astonishment!

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    Azzitay wrote:
    >I use Concussion only if i Overnuke

    So that would be all the time then Azzi
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    Member of Liberty

  11. #11
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    I agree with Malakriss.

    Your cleric gets on the list without creating any actual hate (proximity aggro) at which point you start acquiring hate. Concussion won't dip you below proximity aggro since its really the lowest form of aggro in the game, that is unless concussion can take you to negative aggro. I think that test did more to prove that Concussion won't take you to negative aggro rather than trying to prove that it doesn't lower aggro when resisted.

    Generate more hate with the cleric next time and repeat the test, perhaps you'll end up with different results.

  12. #12
    Elder Arcanist

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    Proximity aggro is not an increaser to generation. It's a % adjustment to whatever your "aggro" is. Everyone's "aggro" is decaying at the (basically, spells are a little fubar) rate.

    I don't know if it works negatively or positively, but I'm going to use positive.

    If I have 1000 "aggro", and the tank has 700 aggro, and the mob does 50% proximity, the tank will have 1050, and if I'm at range I will have 1000. Mob stays on tank, end of story. However, if it's a summoner and I gain 51 aggro, I will get summoned, and I will have 1575 aggro until I leave melee range. Hence why it's so hard to get a mob that summons a caster off them. His safety cushion disappears as soon as he enters melee range.

  13. #13
    using rains to do the standard aggro tests is probably not the best methodology, and using an undead mob to test resists is also not so great. gabbie in sola that drops molten cloak is completely magic resistant, and would be a good mob to test on. some shrooms in seb are also very mr, though not immune.

    mobs like dragoons in OT are generally not very good to test on either, as its like trying to do aggro tests in fear. normalize your tests by using standard mobs, and standard dd spells. overall, i think the concussion resists test is the most conclusive, gullerback just isnt the greatest mob to test it on.
    <br><a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=249605><img src=http://www.jade-dragon.net/files/sig.gif align=left></a><br><br> Dephton Disgustipated<br> 70 Erudite Grand Arcanist of Solusek Ro<br> Jade Dragon, Xegony

  14. #14
    /agree Remfin

    At that point if a Warrior, Shadow Knight, Paladin, or Ranger successfully TAUNT the mob (via the Taunt skill), they will not only regain the attention of the mob, they will inherit a substantial amount of aggro over the amount they previously had.

    This is why taunt hotkey mashers make baby Jesus cry. Having the Taunt ability available to shoot the melee character to the top of the hate list when needed is the most effective use of the skill.


    More research on the effects of "prepping" a mob with Concussion BEFORE nuking should be done IMO. It would be great to see just how much of a benefit (if any) this really can have. An easy test with 2 Wizards casting on a mob being tanked by a Warrior might work best, with both Wizards placed in the same proximity to the mob (in melee range). Have one Wizard "precast" Concussion and then have them both nuke at the same time with a spell sufficient enough to take aggro off of the tank.

  15. #15
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    I found this very informative.. although, like some of the others, think that rains should not have been used or a MR undead mob.

    This shows a lot of work and dedication. You get mad props!
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  16. #16
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    Interesting but I can list dozens of examples where concussion worked when resisted just fine. It is actually incredibly easy to test, and has been many times in the past. Concussion works whether resisted or not, the mechanic is actually easy to understand. The test given only showed that Concussion has a maximum benefit (that is, it cannot reduce aggro below a certain level), not that it has zero effect when resisted.

  17. #17
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    Originally posted by Grimstaff
    Concussion works whether resisted or not, the mechanic is actually easy to understand.
    What's the mechanic that you're understanding? Here's mine:

    1) Resisted nuke - you get the agro of the spell you cast (flagged high agro), but none of the benefit (the actual spell damage).

    2) Resisted concussion - you get the agro of the spell you cast (probably low agro), but none of the benefit (the actual agro reduction).

    Those are the mechanics that I understand, would you mind explaining how your point of view differs (logically)?

  18. #18
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    As far as the argument that you couldn't turn the guller back because the cleric only had prox aggro, look at the second test. Exact same circumstances, prox aggro for cleric, an even bigger nuke used to get aggro on the wizard, and he was able to get it turned.

  19. #19
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    Still undecided. I can both prove it does, and does not work on many differant tests. So until you all can show me some kind of showeq quality data, I'll think you are all full of shit equally.

    /nod

  20. #20
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    Aggro adjustments seem to go off whether resisted or not, they go off before the spell's effects, and since Concussion is simply an aggro adjuster, it isn't exactly what you'd call a stretch to conclude that mechanically it makes sense that it would work either way. And since in my experience it does, that's good enough for me.

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