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Thread: Battle for Azeroth

  1. #61
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawlin View Post
    I've got what... 7 active toons, not all followers geared to the max - they get at least once 2500+ gold mission a day. Yesterday I got 4 on my DH alone.
    The only prep-time is figuring out when there are a few easy 1k+ resources WQs up, and then run them through. All have bodyguards with +resources and +gold.

    I've never been into hardcore goldmaking (most was 200k pre-WoD), but I'll hit 2 million gold before BfA, easy.

    Now after BfA launches, they'll probably nerf the crap out of the gold missions like they did in WoD.
    They don't have any plans to launch a BfA follower app, so my goldmaking ship has probably sailed
    I decided to dump all my gold into Blizzard Currency and a few WoW-Tokens for subs left over. I would expect the tokens to skyrocket once BFA hits.

  2. #62
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    In beta they added a sixth page to the hunter stables.

    So hunters worried about clearing their stables to make room for BfA pets have ten more slots for BfA pets. (which is good because my beta toon has all three colors of the new parrots, two colors of unicorn, the bear with swords and spears sticking out of his back, and the riverbeast with the swords and spears sticking out of his back, along with a few of the new dinos ...)

  3. #63
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackar View Post
    Class Design: The Worst Thing About BFA

    Battle for Azeroth has a lot of things to be really excited about but for me there is one thing that has me really worried. That is class design in BFA. After the massive prune going into Legion Blizzard is now adding downtime and changing gear progression.

    This is an old game and it's had a lot of ability bloat over the years; streamlining it makes sense. I was put off by all the removed abilities myself when I came back, but the process itself makes sense to me as a natural result of the direction this game has taken. A direction that the players themselves are largely responsible for.

    One thing that really struck me (and I don't know if I've mentioned this yet) after coming back after 8 or however many years: the game is really spammy now. This idea that you have to spend every second mashing a button or else the game becomes boring is really bizarre to me. I'm used to using that downtime observing and reacting to the current situation, not fretting over which of my dozens of buttons to hit next.

    I used to hate having to constantly refresh my weapon self-buffs as a shaman every 10 minutes. Now those buffs only last 15 seconds. The defensive abilities of the tanks I've tried have to be refreshed every 6 seconds. Heals seem to heal for far less so that I can be constantly casting them as a healer.

    It's really hard for me to make declaratory statements regarding the current focus of the game, having not hit the new max level yet, so I don't know if this is a design shift or lazy players but I've seen a clear shift away from basic crowd control tenets in favor of mass killkillkill.
    Last edited by Wool; July 1st, 2018 at 05:03 PM.

  4. #64
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    Quote Originally Posted by Wool
    This idea that you have to spend every second mashing a button or else the game becomes boring is really bizarre to me.
    For me, it depended on why I wasn't mashing a button. Just waiting for a proper time, like a healer conserving mana or a DPS waiting on a burn phase? That's fine. Waiting for a short cooldown whose only purpose was to limit how often I could mash a button, or for a random proc, like pretty much all of Enhancement Shaman's abilities in WoD? Yuck. Unholy DK was another spec I played where dev changes between Pandaria (button to mash almost every GCD) and WoD (long pauses between button presses, exacerbated by holding runes to use Soul Reaper on CD) made the spec feel slow and unresponsive.

  5. #65
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    BfA - NEW BLOCKING SYSTEM EXPLAINED! Blocks are going to be AMAZING!


  6. #66
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    Quote Originally Posted by Wool View Post
    a clear shift away from basic crowd control tenets in favor of mass killkillkill.
    In my mind that's been a noxious shift ever since Cataclysm. I've mostly druid tanked since vanilla and I remember how much I hated the shift to AoE spamfest around that time (maybe it started in WotLK and only became blatant in Cata, I don't quite remember). From what I recall it used to be that only paladin tanks were good at AoE tanking while everyone else had to tank the way God intended -- with crowd control and finesse. Instead of removing AoE tanking from paladins like they should have, they just gave AoE tanking abilities to every class and it's been all downhill since then.

  7. #67
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    The CC model doesn't work when there's specs that can't CC, and giving them CC would have big PvP consequences. We saw it in Outlands (I almost called this Kunark, oops), we saw it in Cataclysm, AE tanking with maybe one mob that has to be CC'ed or at least interrupted is here to stay.

  8. #68
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    Quote Originally Posted by Polynices View Post
    In my mind that's been a noxious shift ever since Cataclysm. I've mostly druid tanked since vanilla and I remember how much I hated the shift to AoE spamfest around that time (maybe it started in WotLK and only became blatant in Cata, I don't quite remember). From what I recall it used to be that only paladin tanks were good at AoE tanking while everyone else had to tank the way God intended -- with crowd control and finesse. Instead of removing AoE tanking from paladins like they should have, they just gave AoE tanking abilities to every class and it's been all downhill since then.
    I first noticed it during the tail end of Lich King. It coincided with the "path of least resistance speed run through dungeons" attitude that began to emerge in that era. I complained bitterly at the time, but I've made my peace with it by now. Well mostly. Some of the shenanigans people do to skip content are more trouble than they are worth, and it sucks not being able to do certain dungeons anymore. I was actually told by a tank once to stop healing because it was faster to wipe and run back than to kill the extra mobs pulled.

    I do think it has made players lazy in comparison however. I would chalk it up to pugs being pugs if it weren't for all the talk I've seen of downtime between abilities being boring.


    Quote Originally Posted by Delores Mulva View Post
    The CC model doesn't work when there's specs that can't CC, and giving them CC would have big PvP consequences. We saw it in Outlands (I almost called this Kunark, oops), we saw it in Cataclysm, AE tanking with maybe one mob that has to be CC'ed or at least interrupted is here to stay.
    I'm almost with you. In Vanilla and Burning Crusade CC was more important, but it was also diluted in a bizarre way such that each class that could CC could only CC certain types of mobs. For a raid that's fine I guess, but it's dumb to want a warlock or a mage or a rogue or whatever for different 5 man dungeons.

    That's easily solved though in the same way they solved dispels and interrupts. A lot of classes get dispel, but only when specced for healing do they get the ability to also dispel magic. A lot more classes get interrupts now than did when I last played as well, notably when they are in their dps specs.

    It just needs to be streamlined. Right now it's sloppily implemented and largely ignored by players (unless its a stun). My monk can spec into an aoe CC with a duration that matches its cooldown, avoiding a few wipes in lazy groups. My shaman can spec into an 8 second CC with a long cooldown that I couldn't even figure out if it was working on bad pulls because the druid kept aoeing them instead, even though we were very clearly on the way to a wipe.
    Last edited by Wool; July 5th, 2018 at 07:49 PM.

  9. #69
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    Quote Originally Posted by Wool
    That's easily solved though in the same way they solved dispels and interrupts.
    That solution means giving CC of some kind to every DPS spec. What they have now (assume max level character, since we're talking new content):

    Frost DK: talented 4 second stun (60 s. CD), Control Undead.
    Unholy DK: talented 5 second stun (45 s. CD), Control Undead.
    DPS Demon Hunter: not sure, since I never got to play the class, but it looks like talented 2 second stun on a 30 s. CD.
    Balance, feral druid: talented 5 s. stun (50 s. CD) or 30 s. AE root (30 s. CD). They lost that thing they used to cast that would make winds around the target and CC it for a short time?
    BM, Marks Hunter: talented full CC (Wyvern Sting) with 45 s. CD, full CC (Freezing Trap).
    Survival Hunter: Freezing Trap, some awful talented root.
    Mage: Polymorph, the gold standard.
    Windwalker monk: talented 5 s. stun (45 s. CD).
    Retribution paladin: talented Repentance, 15 s. CD.
    Shadow priest: Mind Control, AE fear, talented AE 4 s. stun (30 s. CD), Shackle Undead.
    Rogue: Sap
    Shaman: Hex
    Warlock: succubus, Shadowfury (AE stun)
    Warrior: talented 3 s. AE stun (20 s. CD), AE fear (90 s. CD)

    If I were making a group, I'd consider shaman, rogue, paladin that had Repentance, mage, and hunter to have CC. Warlock has CC that comes with a fair DPS drawback. Priest has CC in certain specific situations (instance with a lot of undead, maybe one with a lot of humanoids if I trust the priest and tank). Warrior, monk, druid, demon hunter, and DK (even with Control Undead) don't have reliable CC. That's a lot of specs to give CC, and then to make sure it doesn't mess up PvP (they care, personally I don't)? Eeek. And then you need to make sure all this CC is available from the point where you start making instances that require it, unless you plan to have people AE for 100-odd levels then change to CC.

  10. #70
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    Quote Originally Posted by Delores Mulva View Post
    would have big PvP consequences
    You've reminded me of my biggest pet peeve of all in WoW (and every other MMO): HAVE A SEPARATE PVP RULESET YOU MORONS! Getting my character nerfed because of some PvP issue has been garbage forever and always will be. I've become inured to it by now but it never stops being lousy design.

    It's not like I don't still have fun playing WoW but I'm certainly less hardcore than I used to be and the portion of that change which isn't just age is stuff like the above. Of course I was also an enchanter back in EQ (I know, I know, I don't belong on a wizard board) which means I'm excessively partial to CC.

  11. #71
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    I hated it too. But changing it is something that would take major effort. I thought they were doing it with the PvP talent thing, but it seem like they stopped short.

  12. #72
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    Monk CC is actually pretty decent. Every spec has a ranged 60 second CC on a 15 second cooldown that seems to work on just about everything. All specs also get the option to that 5 second aoe stun, which tends to be the preferred pick because stun isn't broken by damage and lets people keep aoeing, but mistweaver also has the choice of a ranged aoe CC that lasts 20 seconds and is also on a 15 second cooldown. I've been using it to control adds on certain boss fights.

    On the same tier, brewmasters and windwalkers also get what is basically a supercharged version of the shaman's old taunting totem. I've never used it in a group so I don't know how tanky it is.

  13. #73
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    Weighing in on the whole shift from CC to mass AE: Yep, to some degree.

    The "art" in the M+ pulls comes from being able to judge exactly how many mobs you can pull - there's a VAST difference between the pulls that a coordinated group can pull off vs. a PUG.
    Timing AE stuns and being mindful of diminishing returns so that you alter AE stuns/fears/disorients is the "new" PvE CC. Glad to see that it's finally caught up with PvP CC
    There's still room for using "old" CC when the pulls/mobs are especially annoying.

    This video is from a Mythic 10 Freehold on the beta server - a very difficult endeavor for any player. They use proper, old, CC to separate packs:


    The mage poly's a caster to the top left of the screen around 0:16 - and re-sheeps around the 0:50 mark.

    Take note that the tanking player is Sco, founder of Method and the tank of many, many world first Mythic kills.
    Just because people don't WANT to use CC doesn't mean it's smart. I hope to see more of this combination of coordinated pack control and "old" CC.

    The CC list that Delores provided is mostly correct (DPS DH has imprison for longer CC as well ) - but the main points that I'm looking for when I'm putting a M+ group together is actual CROWD control, not single mob control.
    So classes with AE stuns, fears, disorients, roots and knockbacks get a big bonus.

    If we take the group in the video as an example, they've covered a whole lot of this:

    Warrior: AE stun, AE fear.
    Monk: AE stun, AE knockback if he wants to have a longer CD on his stun.
    Warlock: AE stun, alternate AE stun on a 3 min CD.
    Mage: AE root, permaslow on all targets that he hits, optional AE disorient.
    Priest: AE disorient.

    You'll see this applied to all high-difficulty M+ groups - if you don't come bringing some form of AE CC, you have to do exceptional damage for people to take you.
    Luckily, most of the DPS specs have an option to spec into some form of AE CC if they don't have it baseline.
    Last edited by Dawlin; July 12th, 2018 at 04:52 AM.
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  14. #74
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    Pre-patch is going to be next Tuesday, the 17th.

    I don't think I like some of the upcoming monk changes, but I've been looking forward to trying the new warlock and hunter specs anyway. Was hoping I would have finished more of the old content by now though, as of right now I'm still in Warlords of Draenor (and I basically skipped Cataclysm).

  15. #75
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    There's a new stone sauralisk in southeast Stormsong valley...


  16. #76
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    Before the patch I had one last run with the old style of monk healing before it went away. It was a mess, but I won't get into that right now. Needless to say I didn't try healing again for awhile and finally did again over the weekend. I don't mind it as much as I thought I would so far.

    What drew me to monk healing was the ability to channel while moving. This allowed me to keep healing pressure up while moving during boss fights, as well as when tanks ran out of line of sight (which they looove to do). This was removed and instead while channeling you can cast some of your other spells instantly.

    They also shuffled around some of the single target/aoe heals, and now monks work like a cross between a druid and a paladin. You put top off dots on anyone injured and they all get healed any time you heal someone with your single target heal.

    They changed a few other things as well, but these two are the big ones. I have not gotten used to the new soothing mist yet, but the beacon hots are definitely cool. All together its a little too much to keep track of though. I don't know if I should blame triggering the global cooldown more often or if it's simply too much for my brain to think about at once, but I'm feeling overwhelmed at the moment.

  17. #77
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    I've been putting that post off for a couple days, but what I really came to post about was the Warbringers animated shorts and the pre-launch War of Thorns questline. They released Jaina's last week, and Sylvanas's was actually the ending to this week's quest. Also note that we have one more coming sometime later, to remind us about the eternal cycle of "Horde vs Alliance but oh wait there is someone worse". (Azshara)

    I want to talk about both of them, but I'm going to do Sylvanas first. Spoiler tagging that one.

    Spoiler for SPOILERS:

    I had to post here as soon as I finished this because it has me cracking up. Leading up to the new expansion Blizzard teased images of Teldrassil being burned and it's oh such a big mystery. The most obvious answer is that Sylvanas did it, but no that's too obvious. Blizzard is more clever than that! They've got something really cool up their sleeves! So everyone spends months speculating.

    Nope Sylvanas totally did it; I can't stop laughing. Most Alliance players probably wouldn't be surprised, as their quest lines have the Horde shown as nothing but evil all the damn time, and Sylvanas is more than happy to ham it up, but the Horde questline goes out of their way to try and make it seem like this is tactical and that civilians will be spared. So either Sylvanas was lying to her generals this entire time, or she was consumed in a moment of pure spite just because a dying enemy got lippy with her. I don't know which is worse.

    Pretty obvious to me that they are setting Saurfang up as the new leader of the Horde though. I'm not sure why Horde players have to go through this whole rigmarole to get there though. Garrosh wasn't enough? And then he will end up like Voljin and killed immediately as well so that Tichondrius or Archimonde or something can become the new leader of the Horde.


    Cutscene is amazing by the way. The only thing that curbs my enjoyment is the baggage regarding how Horde players are treated by the story. Someone has to be the bad guy, and guess what, it gets to be you.

    I think the worst part is that there were some hopeful Horde players that believed Blizzard when they claimed she was "morally gray" and that there would be explanations for things. They wanted to believe their faction wasn't the generic "evil" bad guy faction and have been teased mercilessly by Alliance players for months because of it, and now that has all been proven to be a lie.



    Jaina trailer doesn't require a spoiler tag. It's also awesome. I just want to gripe at what they did to her character. It's the writing, again. It makes perfect sense for her to be angry and resentful, but every since Cataclysm they have had her barking like a mad dog every time the Horde is mentioned and just acting irrational in general. Heck, she sort of reminds me of Lich King era Garrosh.

    And then you have this badass trailer about her returning to her people and admitting that her genocidal maniac of a father was right, and that all the orcs do indeed need to die. Sigh. I haven't written it off yet, the Draenei were a retcon too and I eventually liked them. Maybe I will like her father not being wrong the entire time as well. It hurts for such an inconsistent story to keep over-writing the old RTS games though.


    Spoiler for one last spoiler:

    You know, for awhile it seemed like it was possible they were setting both Sylvanas and Jaina up for a fall. But after seeing both of these trailers, I'm not so sure I can believe that any more. Jaina comes off as vengeful but sympathetic and heroic, Sylvanas as a tragedy waiting for her final end.




    As for the quest line itself, it was okay. Kind of fun in parts, kind of dull in others. The very last step of Alliance side in particular was really well done.

    P.S. Wrathion was wrong. Peace won't be achieved when either the Horde or the Alliance wins. They both have to be destroyed.




    Last edited by Wool; July 31st, 2018 at 01:05 PM.

  18. #78

    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    Quote Originally Posted by Wool View Post
    P.S. Wrathion was wrong. Peace won't be achieved when either the Horde or the Alliance wins. They both have to be destroyed.
    I will continue to hold the unpopular opinion that Blizzard keeps themselves painted into a corner for keeping the two faction hard locked system in place. Alliance v Horde suited the RTS games well and would continue to suit them well if a Warcraft 4 were made, But the MMO is continually harmed by it due to the fact that it basically forces blizzard to waste writing time on new reasons for the factions to backstab each other only to end up working together for a bigger threat. For example having Thrall retire was just a shit excuse to send the Horde on a warpath because Thrall would have torn down that wall. Cannot have that gotta preserver that precious world pvp...
    "When you name your baby Jeeves...you've pretty much set up his career for life. You don't see many Hit Men, for example, named Jeeves. "Pardon me sir, but I must wack you now."
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  19. #79
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    Quote Originally Posted by FilanFyretracker View Post
    I will continue to hold the unpopular opinion that Blizzard keeps themselves painted into a corner for keeping the two faction hard locked system in place.
    This times 100. I have long dreamed of WoW having an EQ-like faction system where you could quest to get any given player race to like you allowing anyone to ally with any faction. Then tauren wouldn't be implausibly shoe-horned in with forsaken, among other things.

  20. #80
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    Re: Battle for Azeroth

    Cinematic: “Old Soldier”



    War has a way of wearing down the most weathered soldiers. For legendary Horde warrior Varok Saurfang, this one could very well be his last.

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