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Thread: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

  1. #141
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Quote Originally Posted by Wool View Post
    Did you like the prequels when they came out? Or were you disappointed at first and slowly came to accept them over time? Not trying to single you out, this is just something I was already wondering to myself and thought the extra point of view might be beneficial.

    For what it's worth, I liked the prequels but I feel like they are something I like because they are Star Wars, not because they are good. Half of what they are known for are the bad parts. Whereas my biggest criticism in the new movies might be "how is Rey so good without training?", the prequels are full of six year old ace pilots shouting yippee, skin smoother than sand, and high ground.
    I liked Phantom Menace when I first watched it, but remember kind of forcing myself to really love it. Compared to the recently released The Matrix, I had to admit I was kind of 'meh' about it. Loved the music though. TPM was bad right from the beginning, it was just that my overwhelming expectations and excitement prevented me from admitting it was bad right away. Although it wasn't long before I was criticizing it. In fact I am sure you can find detailed criticism from me on this very forum explaining why the Death Star run in ANH is superior to the final space battle in TPM.

    Experience with TFA was very different. It's similar only in that I enjoyed it at first, but the experience didn't sit well. This time, expectations were LOW after the prequels. JJ Abrams managed to make a movie that was easy to watch for a couple of hours. It was fast and exciting and full of juicy 'member berries. I recognized the lack of originality of the plot, but didn't care. Rey is a Mary Sue yes, but at least I did not cringe when she said her lines. So I enjoyed it, and might even enjoy it on repeat viewings.

    But upon reflection it really does not hold up. The Map to Luke plotline is lame and doesn't even matter in the end since it's replaced with the Starkiller base plotline.

    Starkiller base was stupid. The way it blew up a bunch of planets and everyone saw it from the ground was stupid. The original Death Star went pretty close to the limit of suspended disbelief, but Lucas managed to sell it anyway. The size and mechanics of Starkiller are just beyond believable and ruin any sense of a coherent setting.

    The New Order doesn't have any kind of remotely satisfying explanation either within the movie itself or within the greater Star Wars context. They're bad because Abrams shoves a whole pile of Nazi symbolism in your face. That's about it. I'm fine not going into the tedious political detail we have in the prequels, although some political intrigue could be done well. It would have been nice to have some kind of coherent context for the war, though. And this is one area where something original would have been much appreciated.

    The need for JJ Abrams to make Han and Leia a failed marriage is pointless and annoying, especially since they have no good scenes together.

    Rey isn't just good without training. She uses the force in a way that totally trivializes what the force is well-established to be from the other movies. I would have bought it, if Rey had discovered that she was force-sensitive by intuitively being able to resist Kylo's mind probe. But then doing the mind trick afterwards was totally unnecessary and ruined the moment.

    She was demonstrated to be a good, scrappy fighter with that bo staff thing. I would have bought it if she'd drawn the lightsaber and used it in a scrappy-but-awkward way to defend herself and escape from the injured Kylo Ren, rather than have a full-on duel where she performs like a trained Jedi and solidly defeats Kylo Ren (who stops appearing injured after the first few swings).

    She is absolutely flawless apart from some mild self-esteem issues. She has no weak points at all and an abundance of exceptional skills and talents. This gives the young character no room to grow, making her boring after awhile. This also prevents other characters (such as Finn) from having their own strong points. Finn is basically all weak points, which makes it hard to sympathize with him after awhile.

    Speaking of Finn, that was a massively wasted opportunity of a character. An ex-stormtrooper is a great concept with lots of potential. None of that potential is realized. He just turns into an comic "verbal diarrhea" sidekick for the rest of the movie. Comic sidekicks like that, when they work at all, work best opposite a hyper-stoic protagonist (think Judge Dredd). When paired with the likable and verbal young Rey, it doesn't work. It's not fun to watch Rey get annoyed at Finn for being a pathetic dork. Their dynamic is shallow and it's hard to get into their relationship. Finn could have been the best character in the movie-- a subtle, dark, conflicted character struggling to exist in a world without order and structure, as a contrast to Rey's cheerful optimism and vagabond background. He could occasionally give us details about what it was like to be a stormtrooper and have inside knowledge that winds up being more than just a trivial plot point and a punch-line. The Finn character could have been used to build more great Star Wars lore, but he wasn't.

    Kylo Ren is a mess. He's introduced as an awesome badass but then is a incompetent screw-up for the rest of the movie and throws tantrums. Not a terrible idea for a character overall, but it could have been pulled off better and if they were going to do this then they need a better actual villain for the sake of the story.
    Last edited by Goladus; January 12th, 2018 at 10:22 PM.

  2. #142

    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Quote Originally Posted by Goladus View Post
    misc.JPG

    There was an article linked farther up where it was revealed a guy was using masses of bots to deliberately poison the audience score on RT.
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  3. #143
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Maybe

    I've seen dozens of thoughtful, detailed reviews like this one on youtube, from a very wide variety of fans, absolutely eviscerating the movie. Like, absolutely tearing it to shreds. These aren't obsessive Star Wars nerd fanboys mad that the film went in a "bold new direction." They're not culture warriors looking for something to fight about. They're genuine, average Star Wars fans that had modest expectations for the movie and maintained fairly reasonable expectations for what a good Star Wars movie should be. This movie was a massive disappointment to them, and I can tell it would be for me, too. Crank calls in the opening scene? Really? Fuck that.

    Note that I did not see the same thing with Force Awakens. After processing the movie and thinking that it seemed kind of shallow, I went looking and found a good-sized faction of dissenters, but nothing remotely close to the negative reaction I'm seeing for The Last Jedi.

    I've also heard word of mouth from some younger relatives that didn't like the movie. That wasn't at all the buzz after Force Awaknes. Force Awakens had very positive word of mouth. I haven't head from anyone IRL that liked TLJ.

    Last edited by Goladus; January 13th, 2018 at 06:43 AM.

  4. #144
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Quote Originally Posted by PPatty View Post
    Yeah, it is space fantasy. Do you question FTL travel and non-spinning ships that have gravity and the sound of laser bolts and ships whizzing through space? Not to mention the whole concept of The Force? No? Then why worry about bombers? Just accept that the Galaxy Far Far Away has different rules of physics and move along.
    Yeah but The Galaxy Far Far Away has its own rules that shouldn't be broken unless you have a really good reason. Otherwise it's not the GFFA anymore it's just someplace new and random and why should I care about it?

  5. #145
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Dozens of angry people on Youtube doesn't begin to compare with the polling power of CinemaScore, which catches people right after the film. I've been in a screening where CinemaScore came in, and it's pretty cool how they tell you what they're doing, hand out the ballots, etc. The ballots are fairly detailed, too, not just "did you like it". An "A" CinemaScore is so far away from a 49% RT fan approval that I'm forced to conclude that the guy was successful in manipulating the RT score (plus the RT score is more "opt in" by nature than CinemaScore).

    Quote Originally Posted by Goladus
    Rey isn't just good without training. She uses the force in a way that totally trivializes what the force is well-established to be from the other movies. I would have bought it, if Rey had discovered that she was force-sensitive by intuitively being able to resist Kylo's mind probe. But then doing the mind trick afterwards was totally unnecessary and ruined the moment.
    This is something I've theorized about since I saw the film. Throughout all the films, the Sith practitioners have been very individually powerful, and there's always been very few of them (master/apprentice). I wonder if there's a concentration effect going on - the more people there are using a side of the Force, the weaker they are on average. Because there's almost no Jedi left in the galaxy (Leia, Luke, Rey), could the same thing happen with them? We've seen Leia barely able to do anything in the past, but you saw what she did in the movie. Luke's trick was incredibly powerful. It's almost like they've all been turned up to "11" when it comes to what they can do.

    Total spec, and my head tells me this was just the writers trying to make the Force-attuned all be world-shatteringly powerful, but I thought it was an interesting enough theory to repeat.

  6. #146
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Quote Originally Posted by Goladus View Post
    Yeah but The Galaxy Far Far Away has its own rules that shouldn't be broken unless you have a really good reason. Otherwise it's not the GFFA anymore it's just someplace new and random and why should I care about it?
    And the good reason is that they are telling new stories. The world changes. That world changed. This is what the GFFA is now.

    For those of us that like the new stories, I thought of this:
    rock_band.png

  7. #147
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    I don't get all the hate. I thought it was a great movie - probably in the top 3 of all Star Wars movies for me. Just because Luke's story arc didn't go how everyone wanted, and Rey's parentage wasn't a huge deal like everyone wanted, they are pissing all over it?

  8. #148

    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    I agree. I thought it was "fine."

    I put it probably somewhere in slot 4 or 5 or 6,but it was still a relief compared to the prequels.

  9. #149
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Quote Originally Posted by Delores Mulva View Post
    The "go in without spoilers" thing is important. There's a lot of big moments that could lose something if you know about them in advance. And this time, when we came out of the theatre, my buddy's wife didn't blurt out a major spoiler while walking past people waiting to get in (last movie: "I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY KILLED HAN SOLO!"), so that was a plus!
    Counterpoint: there has never been a time in my life, that I could have watched a Star Wars movie in a true "spoiler-free" sense. In fact, my earliest memory might be watching the original Star Wars movie. By the time I was old enough to really process the whole movie, I'd seen it multiple times. And yet, I still loved it. I just watched the OT a few months ago and still enjoyed it.

    Why? Because, like Lord of the Rings, it's a timeless epic and a well told fantasy. It's a simple but grand story with memorable characters that unfolds across a fascinating and expansive alternate reality. Maybe it's not as complete as middle earth in its original form, but it has inspired hundreds if not thousands of talented artists in the intervening years to contribute.

    One thing that struck me during the film: so many women in active roles. Women as fighter pilots, as leaders, as main characters. It's one of the most inclusive sci-fi films I've ever seen, and it does it without knocking you over the head with it and begging for a gold star. They're just there because it's their jobs.
    But do you actually care about them for any reason other than they are women? Do you care what they add to the story? Do you care whether the characters are interesting? Do you care about consequences to verisimilitude for cramming lots of women in roles where it is exceedingly rare for them to be found in real life? Adding women just for the sake of adding women is dumb and makes for a dumb movie. Star Wars is not a comic book setting. You can't just break with reality any time you feel like it just for some retarded political agenda.

    I'm not saying you can't have female fighter pilots but if that's your focus the result is going to suck. For example, it would be possible to replace almost any of the male pilots in ANH with female equivalents (except Biggs). But odds are, if the moronic diversity+inclusion ideologues went in to replace the existing male characters with female counterparts, they will most assuredly get it wrong. They'll replace Red Leader, an older pilot who believably commands the respect of his squadron with calm leadership, with a bossy chip-on-the-shoulder feminist. They'd replace jovial Porkins with an obnoxious loudmouth. Wedge's replacement would be fine except that her "ace pilot" talents would be showcased and exaggerated so much that she'd upstage Luke. They'd make these mistakes because, in dwelling on stupid shit like promoting female characters, they'd forget why those characters were in the scene in the first place.

    If you just focus on making a good movie that the fans will appreciate using the resources you have without worrying about meta bullshit like gender ratios and inclusion agendas, you'll get a better movie every single time. And frankly you'll get better diversity, to boot. Because whatever diversity winds up in the movie will be real and believable, not dumbass inclusion agendas forced in by bubble-dwelling ideologues.

  10. #150
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    That is pretty much what I took Delores to mean by "it does it without knocking you over the head with it and begging for a gold star. They're just there because it's their jobs."

  11. #151
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Quote Originally Posted by Mircadius View Post
    And the good reason is that they are telling new stories. The world changes. That world changed. This is what the GFFA is now.
    Yeah and the new GFFA is a silly comic book world with no rules or logic guiding anything beyond how cool the next scene is gonna look. And then drenching everything in memberberry juice to distract older fans.

    Fundamental rules of alternate fantasy realities do not change unless you suck at writing for them. There are things you can change, and things that you can't change. The thing is, there's no reason for Disney to make the mistakes people are pointing out.

    You can change Luke's character, although if you don't suck at it then you'll provide compelling reasons for the change that don't piss off half of the fans. You can change the political landscape, so long as the new politics jive well enough with the old ones that it doesn't seem arbitrary. You can use new and different settings. You can bring in new races and new villains. You can experiment with new ideas for force powers or make subtle modifications to existing powers. New characters can have different rapport and a different sense of humor. The key there is to have a balanced mix of satisfying expectations and exceeding expectations, and minimize the falling short of expectations as much as possible.

    What you don't want to do is just have some character have all the force powers for no observerable reason. Fan theories don't count. You can come up with any hairball theory to justify something crazy, but if the explanation can't go into the movie then you ought to consider the wisdom of including it in the first place. You can drift, but you don't want to just abruptly violate established expectations for no apparent reason.

    You don't want to violate the in-world physics if you can avoid it. The Starkiller base would be a funny joke if you were making a Star Wars parody. Indeed, the opening scene of Spaceballs parodies a Star Destroyer. But making the primary objective in a serious movie a funny joke is not good for a Star Wars movie.

    For those of us that like the new stories, I thought of this:
    rock_band.png
    Whatever, enjoy what you want. Some people like Stevia. The point isn't that you shouldn't enjoy them, the point is that I am no longer interested in Star Wars.

    More importantly, though, I think that in most cases these flaws were easily avoidable, and would have been avoided if they'd just hired experienced, competent writers and directors that understood and respected the Star Wars universe. We both could have been happy with the new stories. Instead, a huge faction is majorly disappointed for no good reason.

  12. #152
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Quote Originally Posted by Goladus
    But do you actually care about them for any reason other than they are women?
    Depends on the character. The fighter pilot (Connix) was just another fighter pilot, like a lot of the background characters. Phasma's plotline has been sparse in both movies, so she wasn't really set up the way a "main" character should be. But Leia, Rey, Rose, Holdo, Rose's sister? All had significant character work or strong scenes (Rose's sister didn't have character work), none of them felt shoehorned in. I mentioned in my post the people who came in cosplay, including the little girl in a full Rey outfit (with staff). It's nice that she can watch the film and have heroes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goladus
    Do you care about consequences to verisimilitude for cramming lots of women in roles where it is exceedingly rare for them to be found in real life?
    Jesus fuck, are you complaining that women shouldn't be X-Wing pilots because it's rare to see female jet fighter pilots today? Do I need to explain why that's fucked up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goladus
    ...if that's your focus....
    It wasn't. Connix didn't have any more lines than a Wedge or a Biggs. The women in the background on the bridge of the ship, or at the Rebel base, didn't do anything different from the men in the same roles. Rose's sister is a great example. Spoilers ahead for those who have yet to see the film:

    Rose's sister is a crew member on one of the Rebel bombers that are sent to destroy a dreadnought. Hers is the last bomber standing, it's taken damage, it hasn't dropped its payload and she's injured. She manages to release the bombs, dying in the process. Later on we meet Rose, her sister, who is inspired to actively fight the First Order with Finn because of her sister's sacrifice.

    Rose's sister could just as easily have been Rose's brother. There's nothing about the role that demands a man or a woman. But I'm going to bet it makes a difference to that girl in Rey cosplay that she saw a woman be a "nameless hero" on screen. And it wasn't done at the expense of a little boy in the audience - he had his Poe, his Finn, his heroes to watch too. Heroes for everybody - a radical concept. And villains, too, although like I said Phasma is really underdeveloped for the role she was given (primary foe to Finn).

  13. #153

    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Quote Originally Posted by Delores Mulva View Post
    Jesus fuck, are you complaining that women shouldn't be X-Wing pilots because it's rare to see female jet fighter pilots today? Do I need to explain why that's fucked up?
    Remember most of us saw people doing their jobs that just happened to be women. Seems like Gol went in already wanting to hunt for some political agenda.


    Pretty sure if you made the Alien franchise today people would claim Ripley being female was an SJW agenda, vs the 1980s where we saw someone kicking Xeno ass and female was secondary.
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  14. #154
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Quote Originally Posted by FilanFyretracker View Post
    Pretty sure if you made the Alien franchise today people would claim Ripley being female was an SJW agenda, vs the 1980s where we saw someone kicking Xeno ass and female was secondary.
    Fun fact that underscores your point, the screenplay went out of its way to never define a sex for any of the characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_(film)#Casting
    they made a note in the script that explicitly states "The crew is unisex and all parts are interchangeable for men or women

  15. #155
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Did you end up watching TLJ Goladus?

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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Quote Originally Posted by Goladus View Post
    Whatever, enjoy what you want. Some people like Stevia. The point isn't that you shouldn't enjoy them, the point is that I am no longer interested in Star Wars.
    Fair enough.

  17. #157
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    I agree with Goladus about universe consistency.

    At the first scene with Holdo and her purple hair I knew the Social Injustice Warriors were going to be upset. I didn't get that vibe from the other female characters.

  18. #158
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Purple hair looked like them trying to get in on that Hunger Games wardrobe and makeup to me.

  19. #159
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Pretty sure if you made the Alien franchise today people would claim Ripley being female was an SJW agenda, vs the 1980s where we saw someone kicking Xeno ass and female was secondary.
    Ripley wasn't a Mary Sue. Her character wasn't pointlessly inserted to fill some stupid quota for female leads. Nobody made an issue of her gender one way or the other. Because SJWs didn't fucking exist in 1980. Feminism in (adult) media during that time was actually about women joining the male-dominated world (eg Working Girl), not trying to reprogram everyone to think that biological differences don't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mircadius View Post
    Fun fact that underscores your point, the screenplay went out of its way to never define a sex for any of the characters.
    Well yeah, the story was written in a way that gender was irrelevant. That shit was supposed to be scary for any human of any gender. If there was a good movie made that way today featuring a female lead, only the smallest fraction of crazy culture warriors would complain about it, and probably even then only because SJW's would dare them to complain about by bringing it up first the way Delores did in this thread.

    And here's another part of the problem-- the constant revisionism and Sarkeeisastic promotion of the lie that there were never any good female roles before Last Thursday when the feminists finally came into power after smashing the patriarchy. There have been legit and popular female characters in blockbusters going back decades, including Star Wars. Princess Leia is the most driven and principled character in the first movie, and is essentially the face of the Rebellion for the audience. But she's not completely flawless. She requests for help from Obi-Wan. She is captured. She has to suffer watching her home planet destroyed. She's a damsel in distress that gets rescued, but then has to take over the rescue operation because Luke didn't think it through and Han is just along for the paycheck. It's all conveyed dialog that manages to be humorous and serious at the same time. In Empire she still has the same inner strength, she's shown to be completely comfortable issuing orders and making decisions. But she's also shown to have feminine vulnerability and develops a relationship with charismatic Han solo.

    1977. 40 years ago.
    Last edited by Goladus; January 13th, 2018 at 11:24 AM.

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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Jesus fuck, are you complaining that women shouldn't be X-Wing pilots because it's rare to see female jet fighter pilots today? Do I need to explain why that's fucked up?
    No, I am sure your explanation will be quite unsatisfactory. You will say:

    (a) Dearth of female jet pilots is an accident of history due to discrimination
    (b) X-Wings are not jets.

    To which I say (a) is complex issue and not something to ignore just because you feel like it

    And (b) they are similar enough and the original inspiration was WW2 dogfights. Yes I know there were some female pilots in WW2.

    And finally: My entire argument wasn't that one line you quoted and flipped out about, and specifically admitted that female pilots could have been cast in ANH without ruining the movie.

    But overall the most important question is why do you care so much? Why did you even take the time to notice and point out how much "inclusion" there was? Why didn't you just notice the characters and appreciate their quality?

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