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Thread: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

  1. #261
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Okay let's break this down just a little bit. The part I keep getting hung up on is the insistence that young men are not receptive to this kind of story. I don't actually believe this to be true, but for anyone it is actually true for I cannot imagine any other reason for why it would be true.
    Young people in general and young men in particular tend to like stories about risk-taking, adventure into the unknown, combat, goal-oriented teamwork, competition, and glory. They've spent their entire lives obeying parents and following rules and are ready to spread their proverbial wings and go out into the world where the only rules are the natural laws. Teenage boys love breaking rules, taking risks, winning competitions and being recognized for it. So, stories that promote these themes will be more appealing than stories the promote the opposite. This doesn't seem like a controversial idea to me and I was probably the most introverted rule-follower in my class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wool View Post
    It absolutely makes sense to like simple stories about hotshot pilots. That sounds like a fun story. But when you tell me someone will only accept a story that reaffirms their preconceptions and only tells them what they want to hear, all I can imagine is that they want to feel powerful and do not want to feel vulnerable. But that kind of vulnerability is how the audience itself learns to mature.
    How about: hotshot pilot uses a clever tick to escape a Star Destroyer tractor beam but blows out his hyperdrive in the process and winds up stranded in the middle of empty space and needs to be rescued? (Ripped from Zahn's book)

    How about: A rule-breaking maverick and his cool-as-ice rival learn to trust each other and fight together as a team? Or, a tragedy shakes the confidence of the hotshot pilot and he must overcome his doubts to succeed? Note how Top Gun ends on a positive note with all of the previously conflicting characters having resolved their differences. The authority figures (Viper) and the rules-and-order figures (Iceman) respect the matured Maverick. Also, Viper isn't ever a complete incompetent leader like Holdo.

    Nowhere did I say you can't show a "hotshot pilot" character make mistakes, be vulnerable in some way, or come into conflict with another good guy character. Just that the actual mistakes shouldn't be so egregious and the internal conflicts shouldn't be so distasteful and off-putting.

    And again, this is a movie with a decent-sized cast and lots of storylines. The story doesn't need to be about the hotshot pilot. Even if Poe's only role in the film is to win a space battle in his X-Wing, does not make the movie "about hotshot pilots." What if the story was mostly focused on Finn? What if but Finn and Poe were trapped on a disabled cruiser while a battle raged outside? The story is about the Finn and Poe overcoming challenges together in order to get Poe to reach his X-Wing. At the end, Poe reaches his X-Wing and goes out and blows stuff up. That's not a story about a hotshot pilot that's a story about teamwork and friendship with a nice payoff at the end.
    Last edited by Goladus; March 6th, 2018 at 11:07 AM.

  2. #262
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    I don't understand why JJ Abrams is supposed to be the savior of Star Wars, when people didn't seem too hot on his take either. I think they will cause more harm than good if they keep flip flopping and refuse to commit to a path.

    I also think it's possible to create a story that makes sense in which she came from "somebody" despite the events of The Last Jedi, but it would be very difficult and would most likely blow up in their faces. I think the idea that importance must be inherited would be incredibly dispiriting to a large number of people at this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerkahia View Post
    I agree with that for most cases, but not so sure with Star Wars. The whole midi-chlorians thing seemed to be commonly most potent with blood line associations. With so few Jedi around in the current environment, I'm not so sure how believable it is to have someone as powerful as Rey spawn kinda randomly. *shrugs*
    But there are no more bloodlines, and even Anakin Skywalker seemingly came out of nowhere. He was apparently either created by the Force itself, or by a Sith, depending on who you ask.

    So the Force basically connects all things, living or otherwise. Nature self-corrects to an extent and you might be able to assume that the Force does something similar. By the end of Return of the Jedi the Skywalker bloodline is the only one that remains. That bloodline then ends in darkness. Which leads us to The Force Awakens, in which the Force literally does just that and begins manifesting itself in new bloodlines, with Rey apparently being at the epicenter.


    The Last Jedi made a concerted effort not just with Rey's parentage to declare that the Force doesn't belong to anyone. Which sort of brings us back to where we were before Lucas introduced midichlorians, being fairly controversial themselves at the time.
    Last edited by Wool; March 6th, 2018 at 11:15 AM.

  3. #263

    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerkahia View Post
    I agree with that for most cases, but not so sure with Star Wars. The whole midi-chlorians thing seemed to be commonly most potent with blood line associations. With so few Jedi around in the current environment, I'm not so sure how believable it is to have someone as powerful as Rey spawn kinda randomly. *shrugs*
    Thing is the no "high class" bloodline can work, Especially at this point in the Star Wars history. With the Jedi council long gone five movies ago now there would be nobody was around to seek out and measure the midichlorine things so there might be many folk who are force sensitive but possibly do not even know how to exercise it. They just accept the odd feelings and times of precognition. After all Rey would still be rummaging crashed space ships if she had not run into the soccer ball droid. She really only started to seek out more about the force once the adventure started.
    "When you name your baby Jeeves...you've pretty much set up his career for life. You don't see many Hit Men, for example, named Jeeves. "Pardon me sir, but I must wack you now."
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  4. #264
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    You can have force-sensitivity be hereditary without making Rey's parents into anyone special. Maybe her great-grandfather was also force sensitive but never became a jedi or anything (that doesn't need to be in a movie either).

    1. In ANH, Luke's past is mainly there to give some reason and justification for him wanting a life of adventure. It wasn't that he had some kind of special destiny, just that he was the son of a warrior not a working man.

    2. In ESB, Vader is established as Luke's father to give Luke an additional conflict and to further explain Vader's obsession with tracking him down and converting him rather than just killing him. Yoda mentions that "there is another," and this was not originally intended to be Leia.

    3. In ROTJ Leia is revealed to be Luke's sister and by this point I think Lucas was starting to get a bit too absorbed in the goofy soap opera angles of his own creation. Luckily this change doesn't ruin the movie. The concept of the force remains largely unchanged. There's just one line "the force is strong in my family" which does not imply any particular level of exclusivity beyond stronger than some hypothetical average. The force is still just a universal energy field and the light/dark side aspect is more about what individual people do with it. It's less about concrete lines between good guys and bad guys and more about which actions take you down a "dark path" or a "light path." Fairly basic good and evil morality somewhat inspired by eastern philosophies like Taoism.

    4. When the first EU novels came out, they featured Mara Jade as a force-sensitive character with Jedi potential who had no relation to Luke. No one seemed bothered by this. Leia gave birth to force-sensitive twins but other than that there was no obsession with the Skywalker bloodline as some kind of Jedi royalty. Note that at this point, there was also very little in the way of lore about the "Sith". It was just part of Lord Vader's title in the Star Wars novelization. More common was the concept of "Dark Jedi" who were just evil force users.

    5. When Prequels came out, they introduced the stupid new idea of a prophecy, the "will of the force" and "bringing balance to the force. It is never really clear what this balance is supposed to mean and so every takes it to mean something else. Some people take "balance" to mean the absence of chaotic evil while others take it to mean an equilibrium between good and evil. Furthermore, the prophecy and will aspects made it seem more like the force plays some kind of role independent of being just an "energy field the surrounds all living things." Now The Force is like some kind of deity rather than a supernatural phenomenon.

    6. Of course the Prequels also introduce midi-chlorians, basically magic bacteria in your blood that explains how force users can interact with the force. Tone-deafness and demystification aside, these are a rather small change. There's nothing about how heriditary a midi-chlorian count is; certainly nothing more than was already established in very vague terms by the OT.

    7. The prequels also develop "the Sith" while giving no real attention to any other evil force-users. The Sith are described as there only ever being two of them, a master and apprentice. Thinking about this too hard is not a very good idea since you wind up having to reach for highly implausible explanations for why Dooku, Maul, and Palpatine weren't all Sith at the same time.

    So Filan is exactly right:

    With the Jedi council long gone five movies ago now there would be nobody was around to seek out and measure the midichlorine things so there might be many folk who are force sensitive but possibly do not even know how to exercise it. They just accept the odd feelings and times of precognition.
    The force has always been as inclusive as it needs to be for the sake of the story. Prequel crap like the Sith duality and The Will of the Force is distracting but is easily ignored and discarded.

    Unfortunately Rian Johnson actually doubles down on prequel-esque retardation and takes it a step further. Instead of doing things to make the force more vast and mysterious, hinting at characters with subtle and odd traits like precognition and such, Rian uses it to explain Rey's extreme powers as some kind of convenient force auto-balancing mechanism and as a lame excuse to include a bunch of specific scenes and shots like the Rey/Kylo skyping, Mary Poppins Leia, Luke force projection, and Yoda's lightning.

  5. #265
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Some articles are saying JJ plans to also bring back Snoke for the next movie.

    Last edited by Ackar; March 8th, 2018 at 04:03 AM.

  6. #266
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    I can see Kylo Ren impersonating Snoke to maintain order/control. Anything else seems like a bad idea.

  7. #267
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Did Trevorrow get fired because of THE LAST JEDI?


  8. #268
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi


  9. #269
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    I watched the Last Jedi again - it was even worse this time


  10. #270
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    Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    Mark Hamill says he's "over" returning to STAR WARS


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