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Thread: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

  1. #121
    Ellsworth M. Toohey
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by FilanFyretracker View Post
    if the business taken does not violate state, local or federal laws its not amoral is it?.
    It surely can be. While legality and morality overlap, they're not synonymous.

  2. #122
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by PPatty View Post
    Yes.
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  3. #123
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by PPatty View Post
    And the answer is that the neighbor is the one who showed mercy to one in great need. Baking a cake for a couple is neither an act of mercy nor fulfilling of any particular great need, so "love thy neighbor" has no bearing on the situation.
    Still missing the point. This of Samaritans in Israel as being similar to black people in the deep south in the 50's. That's about how they would have been thought of.

    The real moral here is "loving your neighbor" means everyone around you at any time. No matter how they have/are treating you.

  4. #124
    Ellsworth M. Toohey
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schezar View Post
    Yes.
    You still haven't addressed the point made in the link, so: NO.

    But to reiterate: Just because someone has to provide service doesn't mean they have to provide exactly what you want. So, no, you can't force a Muslim baker to make Mohammed cartoons for you, just like you can't force a Christian fundamentalist baker to bake a cake that says "God hates you."

    Whether they have to bake you a cake at all for your gay wedding remains the question. But whether the answer is yes or no, they won't have to bake you something that they find offensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eremius
    The real moral here is "loving your neighbor" means everyone around you at any time. No matter how they have/are treating you.
    This reads like the argument of someone who has read about the Parable of the Good Samaritan without actually looking at the words. It's very straightforward:

    Spoiler for Luke, Chapter 10:
    25 - There was a scholar of the law who stood up to test him and said, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
    26 - Jesus said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read it?”
    27 - He said in reply, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”
    28 - He replied to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”
    29 - But because he wished to justify himself, he said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
    30 - Jesus replied, “A man fell victim to robbers as he went down from Jerusalem to Jericho. They stripped and beat him and went off leaving him half-dead.
    31 - A priest happened to be going down that road, but when he saw him, he passed by on the opposite side.
    32 - Likewise a Levite came to the place, and when he saw him, he passed by on the opposite side.
    33 - But a Samaritan traveler who came upon him was moved with compassion at the sight.
    34 - He approached the victim, poured oil and wine over his wounds and bandaged them. Then he lifted him up on his own animal, took him to an inn and cared for him.
    35 - The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper with the instruction, ‘Take care of him. If you spend more than what I have given you, I shall repay you on my way back.’
    36 - Which of these three, in your opinion, was neighbor to the robbers’ victim?”
    37 - He answered, “The one who treated him with mercy.” Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

    "Who is my neighbor?"

    "The one who treated him with mercy."


    Nowhere does it say "Everyone is your neighbor." (In fact, it makes the point that not everyone is your neighbor; given that the law specifically says "love your neighbor as yourself," the gospel is actually saying that you should not love everyone as yourself)

    It does tell us to be merciful to those who are suffering ("Go and do likewise"). The cake-wanting couple was not suffering. The Parable of the Good Samaritan has no application in this gay-wedding-cake instance.
    Last edited by PPatty; February 11th, 2018 at 09:09 AM.

  5. #125
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by PPatty View Post
    You still haven't addressed the point made in the link, so: NO.

    But to reiterate: Just because someone has to provide service doesn't mean they have to provide exactly what you want. So, no, you can't force a Muslim baker to make Mohammed cartoons for you, just like you can't force a Christian fundamentalist baker to bake a cake that says "God hates you."

    Whether they have to bake you a cake at all for your gay wedding remains the question. But whether the answer is yes or no, they won't have to bake you something that they find offensive.
    Except that that's the entire issue. They find gay marriage religiously offense as a premise, so being forced to participate in any fashion is offensive to them.
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  6. #126
    Ellsworth M. Toohey
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schezar View Post
    Except that that's the entire issue. They find gay marriage religiously offense as a premise, so being forced to participate in any fashion is offensive to them.
    You misread the sentence. Whether they find the event offensive is irrelevant -- their refusal on those grounds is for the Supreme Court to consider. But either way, they don't have to bake you a specific item that they find offensive, by itself. A wedding-cake baker would not be offended by a plain ol' wedding cake, for instance.

    Or to use a variation on an example that I provided earlier in the thread: An architect may be forced to serve you. You cannot force the architect to design a house lacking bathrooms and shaped like a middle finger. Providers always have latitude in deciding how they will provide the service or product; you can't force the janitor to use Mr. Clean products, you can't force a gun seller to custom order a specific type of hunting rifle if he doesn't carry it normally and you can't force any baker to design you a turd-shaped brown cake with words that spell out "Fuck you, asshole." And so on.
    Last edited by PPatty; February 12th, 2018 at 08:31 AM.

  7. #127

    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schezar View Post
    Except that that's the entire issue. They find gay marriage religiously offense as a premise, so being forced to participate in any fashion is offensive to them.
    What would you say if an Muslim car dealership owner in say Ohio refused to sell cars to women because he finds women driving to be religiously offensive, After all ladies driving used to be illegal in Saudi Arabia due to religion.
    "When you name your baby Jeeves...you've pretty much set up his career for life. You don't see many Hit Men, for example, named Jeeves. "Pardon me sir, but I must wack you now."
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  8. #128
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by FilanFyretracker View Post
    What would you say if an Muslim car dealership owner in say Ohio refused to sell cars to women because he finds women driving to be religiously offensive, After all ladies driving used to be illegal in Saudi Arabia due to religion.
    I would say he would be going out of business soon due to the fact he is ignoring nearly half his client base.
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  9. #129
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eremius View Post
    I think the parable of the good Samaritan calls bullshit on this statement.
    The parable of the snake seems to have superseded the parable of the good Samaritan in the community in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ndhdZtLXiU&t=1m41s

  10. #130
    Ellsworth M. Toohey
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.


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