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Thread: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

  1. #81
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by FilanFyretracker View Post
    I should note that this baker should also refuse to bake wedding cakes for second marriages as divorce is also viewed as a sin.
    That's mostly a catholic thing, and even then there are exceptions. The anti-gay thing is found in almost every major current mythology.
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  2. #82
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    gays (men) don't make babies (according to their, religion/idiots/bigots, thinking anyway)
    so less babies = less people to control
    ergo they don't like that....or fact that so many priests of all religions are gay and hiding it so are extremely antigay to hide their hypocrisy,
    or child or other forms of rapists and using religion as superb cover,
    or genuinely evil etc

    and of course minorities/odd folk are ALWAYS great scapegoats

    because really religion is about controlling folk especially using birth death marriages as a way to force/extort their power

    FUCK organized religion!


    one of the things that pissed me off was reading about a paedophile teacher (iirc religion was involved somehow but can't recall details) in England 1950s, he was actually given light sentence and sympathized with because "the boys had tempted him into it!"
    seriously, no shit.
    yeeeees, 12 and 14 year old boys got all sultry and demanded they get sodomized so they got internal injuries and that brought it to light, a huh.... (there is no smiley sufficient of my sarcasm and vitriol)
    pardon me while I fucking PUKE.


    gay = just an odd form of normality, just like being a geek, nerd, sporty type, fashion fiend, or whatever.
    religion = still stuck in the fucking Bronze Age
    Last edited by Silverblade-T-E; September 9th, 2017 at 02:52 PM.

  3. #83
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    There will be no winners in the Supreme Court’s wedding cake case

    The public fascination with the Supreme Court, shrouded in mystery and robed with power, lies in its operatic authority not just to dispense justice but also to do so with dramatic flair. Someone always wins, and someone always loses. That is precisely what makes the court too blunt an instrument for resolving many conflicts of rights.

    The court will hear arguments Tuesday for a case that illustrates this perfectly. It involves a baker who refused on religious grounds to produce a cake for a gay couple’s wedding reception. The dispute has been described as a landmark test of LGBT rights. It is also being heralded as a moment to protect religious liberty.

    But in reality, this case is testing the limits of the courts’ ability to resolve social disputes. No matter which party prevails, there is no winning scenario.

    Left to the political process — or even better, to informal mechanisms of society — the conflict almost certainly could be resolved without forcing a choice between anti-discrimination laws and religious freedom. Surely no one believes same-sex couples actually want the services of a baker they consider a bigot hostile to their rights. The object of the case is not to secure Masterpiece Cakeshop’s services. It is to dragoon its owner, Jack C. Phillips, into compliance with their views.

    The problem is that Phillips can’t be forced to agree with those views. He can only be made to deliver a cake, but that outcome would almost surely set the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender rights movement back by stoking resentment from its opponents. That is exactly what happened in the late 1990s and early 2000s, when court rulings sparked a wave of state constitutional amendments defining marriage heterosexually.

    Court cases — or in the Colorado bakery instance, civil rights complaints resolved by administrative judges — tend to do that. While the political process is rooted in persuasion and compromise, rights claims signal to their targets that complainants do not believe they should have to engage in either.

    Diplomat and legal scholar Mary Ann Glendon calls this “rights talk,” or the substitution of rights claims for reason-giving. Whereas reason-giving — ordinary dialogue and persuasion, essentially — brings people together, rights talk splits them further apart. Where compromise bridges conflicts, rights talk accentuates them.

    In this case, rights talk is forcing a conflict between two fundamental values. Of course, sometimes values collide and society must choose. But the prudent first course should be to avert collision.

    The most obvious option is for a couple to obtain their wedding cake from a baker who is happy to supply it and from whom they are pleased to purchase it. Masterpiece Cakeshop is outside Denver. The supply of bakers there is ample. Common sense — or common courtesy — provides supple tools to resolve the dispute.

    Those who believe in tougher measures against discrimination also have tools: There is a growing market for same-sex weddings that Masterpiece Cakeshop is losing — a more severe punishment than courts are capable of meting out.

    In either case, the challenge for rights advocates is implementing long-term changes. The solution is erecting a deep foundation of support for them. James Madison recognized as much. He derided bills of rights as “parchment barriers” easily overrun by majorities who did not genuinely support them. When he came around to endorsing a Bill of Rights, Madison said that one of its foremost purposes would be creating a basis for educating and appealing to the public.

    This political model of rights has given way to a judicial ethic that explicitly aims to spare citizens the slower yet surer work of persuading one another. It has exempted elected officials from the responsibility of balancing competing values.

    One might ask what distinguishes this case from laws concerning racial discrimination. In other words, why not also keep those from the courts?

    One answer is that cases such as Brown v. Board of Education did not contribute nearly as much to desegregation as political processes did. The more important answer is that the judiciary is a clumsy instrument for such distinctions. There is a substantial difference between sincere religious objections to same-sex marriage and bogus objections to laws against racial discrimination. Most people can make that distinction intuitively.

    In the Masterpiece Cakeshop case, LGBT advocates can hope for a pyrrhic victory at best. Conscientious objectors to same-sex weddings may be pressed into service, but only at the long-range cost of intensifying their opposition. A vindication of religious liberty, meanwhile, would tarnish that value, however unfairly, with the taint of discrimination.

    These are unfortunate choices, all the more so because they are unnecessary. Politics would avert them. Informal mechanisms of society — the couple choosing another baker and the baker forgoing business — would defuse them. Diverting the case to court is the only scenario in which, by forcing a winner, everyone loses.

  4. #84
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.


  5. #85
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delores Mulva View Post
    That is an awesome tweet right there!

  6. #86
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    I saw this in the comments below


  7. #87
    Ellsworth M. Toohey
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    No, because the gun store owner didn't know the guy was going to commit murder.

  8. #88

    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by PPatty View Post
    No, because the gun store owner didn't know the guy was going to commit murder.
    This.

    And if the person told a gun shop owner they intended to murder someone the shop owner would call the police right away, No way a licensed firearms dealer is going to take the risk that "The person was only joking".
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  9. #89

    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" no longer exists?

    Don't get me wrong. The dude should just have c
    Treated them as any other customer, unless he had to do something, obviously gross for business, like a goatse image. But be that as it may, the couple has a great point to protest, were they interested, but Supreme Court? Fucking A. Not with the current justices

  10. #90

    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinthalas Tigris View Post
    "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" no longer exists?

    Don't get me wrong. The dude should just have c
    Treated them as any other customer, unless he had to do something, obviously gross for business, like a goatse image. But be that as it may, the couple has a great point to protest, were they interested, but Supreme Court? Fucking A. Not with the current justices
    I think the bakers issue is he decided to soap box it.

    Could have just (lied) and said "Unfortunately I have no openings that would allow me to complete a cake on your time table but here are some other bakers nearby".

    Instead he had to go and make it a religious rights issue.

    But this SCOTUS will make things worse, They are way too conservative.
    "When you name your baby Jeeves...you've pretty much set up his career for life. You don't see many Hit Men, for example, named Jeeves. "Pardon me sir, but I must wack you now."
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  11. #91
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinthalas Tigris View Post
    "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" no longer exists?

    Don't get me wrong. The dude should just have c
    Treated them as any other customer, unless he had to do something, obviously gross for business, like a goatse image. But be that as it may, the couple has a great point to protest, were they interested, but Supreme Court? Fucking A. Not with the current justices
    There have always been limitations to that. The question is where is the line? If he is allowed to not provide services for gay people, then why should he have serve black people?

  12. #92
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinthalas Tigris View Post
    "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" no longer exists?
    Oh it certainly still exists all right.

    -Just not on grounds of race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc...
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  13. #93
    Ellsworth M. Toohey
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dramadon View Post
    There have always been limitations to that. The question is where is the line? If he is allowed to not provide services for gay people, then why should he have serve black people?
    The question being considered in this case is not one of service. If this were about being a janitor, this case wouldn't exist.

    But the baker is saying that he should be viewed as the equivalent of a painter or sculptor, as opposed to, say, a chef. Although wedding cakes are made using food, a case could be made that their primary purpose isn't really to be eaten, but to express sentiments of long-lasting love. And if their primary purpose is expression rather than sustenance, then why shouldn't their makers enjoy First Amendment protections? At least that's the argument.

    A counterargument could be that even if it expresses something, it really exists to be devoured, just as the primary purpose of a gun is to wound or kill, even if that act is also an expression of a belief, as many terrorist acts actually are.

    The difference is whether the cake really does exist to be eaten. I think it's almost on a case-by-case basis -- most cakes are made for consumption, but there are numerous exceptions. For instance, no one makes that fondant-laden shit on Cake Boss and its ilk for the purpose of eating it. Wedding cakes arguably fall somewhere in between.

    (I've certainly been to weddings where one bite of the cake produced the conclusion that the damn thing should have stayed only on display...)

  14. #94

    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    And that is the big one, Is a wedding cake vendor an artist or food services. The Artist has lots of protections with being able to deny creation of art, While the food services person cannot deny service based on who someone is.
    "When you name your baby Jeeves...you've pretty much set up his career for life. You don't see many Hit Men, for example, named Jeeves. "Pardon me sir, but I must wack you now."
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  15. #95
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by FilanFyretracker View Post
    And that is the big one, Is a wedding cake vendor an artist or food services. The Artist has lots of protections with being able to deny creation of art, While the food services person cannot deny service based on who someone is.
    Both. The cake itself is a work of art. It's also meant to be eaten. The client designs how they want it laid out, what kind of frosting, colors, shape, etc. But it's definitely not mass produced, and it takes a fair amount of craftsmanship to make it look beautiful.

    Pretty much anything that isn't out of a box is going to fall under art. That is going to be the best case ending for this case. If it goes the other way expect lots of muslim bakers getting compelled to make Mohammad cartoons in the near future.
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  16. #96
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schezar View Post
    Pretty much anything that isn't out of a box is going to fall under art.
    Not so. Restaurant food is not art, even if Thomas Keller chefs it up. Buildings generally are not art, though there are some exceptions. A Rolls-Royce limousine, for all of its handcrafted nature, is not art. Craftsmanship, in and of itself, does not make something a work of art.

    Even cakes generally are not art. But a wedding cake is a very specific thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schezar
    If it goes the other way expect lots of muslim bakers getting compelled to make Mohammad cartoons in the near future.
    Nah. Being required to provide a service doesn't mean you have to provide it in exactly the manner a customer prescribes. An architect may have to serve you, but you can't force him to design a building shaped like a donkey.

  17. #97
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

    Forcing a baker to provide a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage over her religious objections violates her right to free speech, a California judge has ruled.

    “A wedding cake is not just a cake in a Free Speech analysis,” wrote Superior Court Judge David R. Lampe in a decision late Monday. “It is an artistic expression by the person making it that is to be used traditionally as a centerpiece in the celebration of a marriage. There could not be a greater form of expressive conduct,” he said.

    As a result, a state anti-discrimination law, which applies to all kinds of other goods and services, does not apply to the baker, who lives in Bakersfield.

    The judge’s reasoning is similar to that of the “cake artist” awaiting a U.S. Supreme Court ruling. In that case, Jack C. Phillips, a Colorado baker, is arguing that the First Amendment’s free speech and free exercise of religion clauses give him the right to refuse wedding services to a same-sex couple, despite public accommodations laws that require businesses that are open to the public to treat all potential customers equally. The court heard arguments in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission in December.

    The argument of the Colorado baker has the support of the Trump administration, marking the first time the government has argued for an exemption to an anti-discrimination law, as The Washington Post’s Robert Barnes and Ann E. Marimow reported.

    The California case, which is likely to be appealed, began with a complaint by Eileen and Mireya Rodriquez-Del Rio before California’s Department of Fair Employment and Housing after they sought to buy a cake from Tastries bakery for their October 2017 wedding vows.

    The couple did not want any words or messages on the cake, just the cake. Still, the owner, Cathy Miller, told them that “because she does not condone same-sex marriage,” according to the opinion, she would send their order to another bakery, called Gimme Some Sugar.

    “Miller is a practicing Christian and considers herself a woman of deep faith,” the opinion said. She believes that same sex unions “violate a Biblical command that marriage is only between a man and a woman.”

    She is also “a creative artist” who “participates in every part of the custom cake design and creation process,” the opinion said.

    The state agency sided with the couple, arguing that California’s Unruh Act, which bars discrimination in public accommodations, “does not compel speech, but only conduct,” in this case, the baking and selling of a cake.

    In addition, the state argued, the First Amendment protects only “those occasions where government requires a speaker to disseminate another’s message,” which was not the case here.

    It sought an order forcing Miller to provide the cake.

    Lampe, the judge, denied it. He said it did not matter that the baker was not being asked to design particular words on the cake. The wedding alone, with the couple engaging in speech, “could not be a greater form of expressive conduct.”

    He compared a bakery to a tire shop, saying that the shop could not refuse to sell a tire to a same sex couple because “there is nothing sacred or expressive about a tire.” Similarly, had the couple just chosen a cake out of a display case, the bakery could not have refused to sell it to them.

    “The difference here is that the cake in question is not yet baked. . . . The State asks this court to compel Miller to use her talents to design and create a cake she has not yet conceived with the knowledge that her work will be displayed in celebration of a marital union her religion forbids.

    “ . . . For this court to force such compliance would do violence to the essentials of Free Speech guaranteed under the First Amendment.”

  18. #98
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    BITCH ASS MOTHERFUCKERS NEED TO BACK THEIR SHIT UP WITH REGARDS TO WHAT FREEDOM OF RELIGION MEANS:

    The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says that everyone in the United States has the right to practice his or her own religion, or no religion at all.

    Our country's founders -- who were of different religious backgrounds themselves -- knew the best way to protect religious liberty was to keep the government out of religion. So they created the First Amendment -- to guarantee the separation of church and state. This fundamental freedom is a major reason why the U.S. has managed to avoid a lot of the religious conflicts that have torn so many other nations apart.

    The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits government from encouraging or promoting ("establishing") religion in any way. That's why we don't have an official religion of the United States.
    The religion portion of things should never have come into this just because the establishment owners were religious in a way that looked down on homosexuals.

    Also, "Gimme some sugar" is about the gayest cat-call I can think of.

    They could have simply said "we're overbooked" or "we're not interested in making that cake in that style" or any number of other more polite things.

    Discrimination is bad, but I feel like this was two parties banging heads on purpose for publicity reasons.
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  19. #99
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ackar View Post
    stuff
    Seems pretty opposite to what little I know of california law. They're pretty firm on discriminating against customers due to orientation.

    It's why this came to a head.
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  20. #100
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    Re: Homophobic bakery has Gofundme campaign canceled, blames Satan's gay armies.

    That California case came to the right conclusion. Let's see if the USSC does the same.
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