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Thread: Finances and Administration

  1. #141

    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Eamin View Post
    Yes, why would I care if I get modded? The point of discussing the ruleset isn't to figure out how to maintain my lucky streak of being rude enough to get reported but not quite rude enough to get modded, it's to figure out how to make the rules less of a hassle for everyone.

    In any event, if the rules were vague the mods would decide whether a given statement was against them and they would decide how to respond, just like they do now. The only difference is that they wouldn't have to worry about adhering to a ludicrous and poorly-written ruleset. They could say: I think this is a moddable offense, given the context, here are my reasons. And if a majority of the other mods agree with them then it would be, at least until the next elections. And people could argue, but they couldn't argue based on the ruleset, they would have to actually argue based on things that matter, like "was this behavior warranted or provoked?" and "is this really the sort of behavior we want to encourage here?" and "would disciplinary action in this case cause a chilling effect on legitimate discussion in the future?"

    Also, being most-reported user is a strangely gratifying distinction.
    Oh god. Stop talking about fucking rules. Who gives a shit? You are like the guy that wants to argue about who gets the fucking clicker to change the channels as the house burns down.

  2. #142
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    We used to have the "subscriptions" offer additional features, but it causes problems. Such as what happens when a user stops paying and their inbox is too small for their mail. And the Avatars help people realize who is posting, with only names things get missed much more frequently and misunderstandings happen.

    Of the 200 users, we have like 10 people ever want to be moderators, and a lot of them probably can't pay anyway. We'd end up with the Admin being the only moderator.

  3. #143
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninetoes View Post
    Then fine, don't take Voca up on her offer to help. JFC you people act like she held a gun to board's head. The woman has been fronting the board for damn near 6 months and its come to an end. She offers to continue to help with some conditions and she been insulted,her motives questioned and generally treated like shit by a bunch of useless fucks who DONT financially support the board. It's great that now some folks have stepped up but goddamn Graffes proves the old adage "No good deed goes unpunished"

    Fuck the lot of you ungrateful bastards.
    Oh shut the fuck up. I don't think anyone (besides Dmitry) is acting like Voca is holding a gun to the board's head. We're just debating her proposal on its merits.

  4. #144
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by DmitrytheWizzy View Post
    Oh god. Stop talking about fucking rules. Who gives a shit? You are like the guy that wants to argue about who gets the fucking clicker to change the channels as the house burns down.
    Well, Voca gives a shit, as she's advocated changing the rules. Figuring out if we want to take her up on her offertimatum or not is going to involve discussing the rules.

  5. #145

    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninetoes View Post
    Then fine, don't take Voca up on her offer to help. JFC you people act like she held a gun to board's head. The woman has been fronting the board for damn near 6 months and its come to an end. She offers to continue to help with some conditions and she been insulted,her motives questioned and generally treated like shit by a bunch of useless fucks who DONT financially support the board. It's great that now some folks have stepped up but goddamn Graffes proves the old adage "No good deed goes unpunished"

    Fuck the lot of you ungrateful bastards.
    The reason we are in the hole, the reason she has not been paid back is because nobody even knew what the hell was happening? Are you saying you knew and did nothing? Why are we finding out about this now? This should have been dealt with back when it was becoming a problem instead of getting an ultimatum that says rules changes or nothing.

    How about... no rules changes and we find a way to fix the financial problems? Not good enough? We have to have rules changes.. why? Because the only solution to something that should not be a problem is to give over the reigns to Voca because we owe her money that should not be owed except for the deleterious actions of Voca, Grindel and maybe you if you knew the problem was coming? Sounds a lot like throwing good money after bad. What am I the governor of RI Mr Schilling???

  6. #146
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandor View Post
    You know, it's funny. Graffes always had overzealous mods; it was part of our culture. Banhammers got swung from time to time, and it just didn't matter. The site grew anyway, because it had a purpose. I think what happened is we all got cocky. We decided we were something important and a bunch of us wanted to codify the "why" of it. That was a mistake I think. I mean, we probably could have started our own super-pac, discovered a cure for baldness, or provided consulting to movie studios and game designers RE: Wizards, but we didn't. Instead -- we had a half-decade long argument about "the rules," and now, almost no one posts here. *shrug* It was fun while it lasted, or at least the first part of it was.
    Lys fucking nails it. Reap what you sow, people.
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  7. #147
    Lord Inquisitor Lenin
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    I don't think Voca or anyone else ever precluded "no rules changes and we find a way to fix the financial problems" as an alternative to her desired rules changes. In fact, she explicitly stated it was a valid alternative.

  8. #148
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Less talking about rules, more talking about how, as a community, we're going to attempt to save the site.

    I've seen some suggestions of making a graffe reddit (/r/graffe) though I suppose most of the new people would wonder why we talk about wizard hats and gnomes and almost never giraffes. We could try to reforge ourselves as a gaming media outlet, again, but we'd need a bigger staff of writers and people to put up things like reviews and editorials etc that we could publish to the front page (if/when we get a front page back). If we go that route we'd probably want to try to spread the good (ha!) word of graffe with social media in an attempt to drum up some extra readership.

    We have 200 active members a month from a wide variety of professions and yet we collectively can't keep one website interesting. whelp.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitrytheWizzy View Post
    Mdar posts less than Graffe.
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  9. #149
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    I don't know, I think Graffe's is pretty interesting or I wouldn't be here.

    I also don't have a problem with Voca staying on as admin, we just need to figure out what to do about her proposed rules changes. If the rest of the board has decided that the rules changes, or even just talking about the rules, is unacceptable then I guess we should find an alternative, but I'm fine either way.

  10. #150
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Nadiar View Post
    We used to have the "subscriptions" offer additional features, but it causes problems. Such as what happens when a user stops paying and their inbox is too small for their mail. And the Avatars help people realize who is posting, with only names things get missed much more frequently and misunderstandings happen.

    Of the 200 users, we have like 10 people ever want to be moderators, and a lot of them probably can't pay anyway. We'd end up with the Admin being the only moderator.
    Given this sort of traffic -- and I'd agree with you that the anecdotal evidence over at Who's Online plays out these numbers -- it may just be that this community is too small to really merit its own forum system, even on a RackspaceCloud Sites account. To meet the $100/mo. grandfathered charge, each user would have to be willing to pitch in $6/year. on average, out of the ~200 users. That's not really sustainable for forum communities, where traditionally around 15% of your total user base is really interested in contributing (up to 30% on really focused, purpose-driven niche sites). I suspect Graffe's is, at best, generating around $30-$40 a month, on good months, with significant surges happening during times of crises. (I suspect the surges, too, have gone down as the number of regulars continues to dwindle.)

    Have you considered just setting up a free Google Group? You get all of your threaded conversational functionality right there, and it's free.
    Last edited by Kaelon; May 17th, 2012 at 09:36 PM.

  11. #151
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninetoes View Post
    Then fine, don't take Voca up on her offer to help. JFC you people act like she held a gun to board's head. The woman has been fronting the board for damn near 6 months and its come to an end. She offers to continue to help with some conditions and she been insulted,her motives questioned and generally treated like shit by a bunch of useless fucks who DONT financially support the board. It's great that now some folks have stepped up but goddamn Graffes proves the old adage "No good deed goes unpunished"

    Fuck the lot of you ungrateful bastards.
    This is you right now, Baelan:

  12. #152
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    I've written two freaking replies now to this thread and the iPad has eaten both of them. So, in a fit of pique I'm going to bed and will contribute something more meaningful tomorrow.

    Damn technology.

  13. #153

    Re: Finances and Administration

    honestly i dont use this forum that much as it's mostly dead. i mean it was a freaking class forum, surprised it has even lasted this long as most the other eq sites have long since dried up. what graffee should of done is picked up another game and heavily documented it just like they did on the wizard class


    anyways why not try to use more adsense type of stuff? 90% of many other forums i go to have ads. also there is money to be made on youtube if people started making graffee political and video game videos(sure grafffee should get partnered pretty fast by em) hehe
    yeah i got a youtube channel! check it out. it's mostly lets plays and don't go in expecting it to be super professional. Enjoy! =p

    My youtube!

  14. #154
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Ringo did just that with WOW, which is why we still have the forum today. If you have a game you're feeling passionate about by all means go for it.
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  15. #155
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Voca, first off: thanks a lot for picking up the tab for so long.
    Quote Originally Posted by Voca View Post
    So here's the thing from my point of view. What made administering Graffes unsuccessful for me was endless arguing about moderation and drama over rules etc. It ate so much of my time that I had no time for proselytizing, for building the front page, for any of that stuff. And I did have ideas about those things as you well know. So maybe among other things it would be good for you all to consider whether the difficulty of administering the rule set is part of the problem.
    But this is where it gets complicated, doesn't it?

    After some Deep Thoughts (TM): in your original post, you address two immediate problems.
    The money (that one has actually two parts: the debt that the site owes, and future subscription fees), and the fact that there's no lead admin right now.
    The money part seems to have become less urgent for now, but is still important of course.
    The lead admin problem: as far as I can see, it's the confusion over that one that CAUSED the money problem. Apart from that, the moderation stuff isn't really hectic these days, the fact that it took us a while before we even noticed that Grindel wasn't posting anymore is pretty revealing imo.

    Then you propose one possible solution for those two: you step in and do the fund raising and the lead modding for a while, but you only want to get back into that role on two condtitions: a change to the mod election rules that no one is losing any sleep over, and a more controversial generalisation of the "hate speech" rules. Bickering ensues, who would have thought?

    Personally, I would vote for a wider "no hate speech"/"no really foul stuff" rule in a heartbeat, if anything because it's simply much more *elegant* than the current "no antisemitism, no gay bashing, no pictures of goats, etc." approach. I also don't think that those two demands are unreasonable, I just think that they're a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy right now.
    Your reasoning is probably that the rule-lawyering is going to go down a lot as soon as the ruleset makes more sense (depending on your definition of "sense" of course) so that, by then, you'd have time for the stuff that can actually be fun, but are you really sure that it's not going to be the other way around?

    I'd much rather have a site with imperfect rules but with a Voca who's happy working on frontpage projects and so on, than one with a somewhat more perfect ruleset that everybody just keeps on bickering about all the damn time.
    "Better an honest enemy than a shitty friend that's robbing you blind."

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitrytheWizzy View Post
    Why start your proposed new reign with an ultimatum to ONCE AGAIN change the rules? It's fucking retarded to immediately jump back into the shit you hated the first time.

    If you actually posted here still, you might make a very good behind the scenes cajoler of people. THey tend to like you and you like to praise people and make them happy. Don't set yourself up to be the bad guy again. It's not your strength (even if you DID still post here).
    Thanks Dmitry for this (no sarcasm). I went away and thought about it a lot. I think Etelka gets it dead right later in the thread --- I labour under the illusion that a rational coherent set of rules would result on less dickering. But you are right, no matter what the rules are there will be asshats, or bored gnomes, and dealing with them is not my strong suit.
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  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Etelka View Post
    Then you propose one possible solution for those two: you step in and do the fund raising and the lead modding for a while, but you only want to get back into that role on two condtitions: a change to the mod election rules that no one is losing any sleep over, and a more controversial generalisation of the "hate speech" rules. Bickering ensues, who would have thought?
    I know, what was I thinking! Graffes without bickering would be a sign of the end of times.
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  18. #158
    This *will* hurt a bit.
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    The cheek... She just says that I am right, can you believe it??

    Still, we're only at about page eight or so, and more than half of it was discussion of a reasonably mature level, so no. I strongly disagree with you that this is all just pointless bickering.
    "Better an honest enemy than a shitty friend that's robbing you blind."

  19. #159
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    I'll pay for all the costs to run the site. All I want in return is Robert De Niro's phone number, his mole is starting to worry me.

  20. #160
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    It seems that top priority should be reimbursing Voca. This is independent of any actions taken to sustain or close the site.

    If the site has devolved to the point of being nothing more than sectioned forums, we can easily do that *for free* in any number of locations, many of which were mentioned in this thread - Google Groups, Reddit, or whatever. I do not partake of the blogs/photos/etc hosted here, so I would attempt to be a part of such a migration without any regret.

    Ultimately, however, it seems like we're paying a lot to post on forums. This seems, to me, to be a bit out of step with other sites I've been a part of or helped administrate. If we do sustain the current model - rules discussion notwithstanding - there may be some options we could adjust to reduce the cost? $100/month is ... heavy.
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