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Thread: Finances and Administration

  1. #121
    Systems Administrator
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by DmitrytheWizzy View Post
    My first version of the response did. Then I decided that maybe you realized I LIKE being able to fuck around and get banned.
    I would hope that was obvious to everyone years ago. Having to censor what you say can be frustrating. Sometimes people really should be told to stfu, and one of the things I dislike about our moderation guidelines is that if someone has a nonsensical complaint, we still forward that message on to the other person and treat it seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    It's called sarcasm, Mdar. Who's done the donation drives in the past? I seem to remember always seeing a yearly "It's that time again" thread, but I haven't seen that for a while. When a problem is easy to ignore, it's easy to ignore. Instead of paying for this shit on her own credit card, we should have run a donation drive, but that didn't happen. My question is, why? Were we all too busy? Was it technically too complicated? Were we just lazy and said "fuck it, no one cares?"

    I can't say I have a lot of sympathy right now, a problem of your own making is a problem of your own making, and coming back months after it's a problem and complaining about it with an ultimatum attached isn't the right way to handle it either.

    We've had fund raising drives in the past, and we've always been able to pay the bills, so WHY AREN'T WE DOING THIS NOW?
    I would have done the notification for the Fundraiser, but everyone kept saying "Oh, I'm going to do this niftycoolthingNadiardoesn'tthinkwillwork instead!" So I never put it up. And to be fair, the one up there now is similar, because Voca was saying she was at -$500 and was going to post about all of this stuff. I figured at the very least we have to pay her back the $500, and once we get past that we can work out what we're going to do going forward.



    I really think that we should use the Flags system and not show the "Halls of Moderation" forum at all. The problem with it is that the system calls the action a Moderator takes when he doesn't think it's a big deal a "Warning" and the only real action is an "Infraction"

    The low level is literally 0 points and is considered to have instantly expired. But the bonus is when someone else looks at the post later, they see a the yellow card there and they know it was considered a poor post. I think if more people saw the little indicators that a moderator had investigated a post, people would have a better perception when something was actually done.

    But we have people that think a 0 point, meaningless indicator is the same as throwing them in prison for a crime. The only real time to change that was when we first got our moderators, by having them basically flag every single post that looked wrong at all as the 0 point notice. Eventually people would get so used to seeing them they wouldn't worry about it. But we had a certain moderator that was hell bent on forcing the other moderators into a specific mold (which was basically the same exact mold we'd always had).
    "Complaining is the modern metagame" - BNet forums

  2. #122
    Mangina at large.
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Eamin
    Yeah, because explicit rules is a really silly and unworkable stance. Just vague the rules out and leave it up to the mods.
    Let's suppose a user of Graffe's was the single most reported user for the past year. Let's also suppose that the same user wrote something like this in a thread, revealing a mindset completely contrary to the level of civility desired at Graffe's:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypothetical User
    Where does this idea that I don't realize I'm making aggressive personal attacks come from?
    If the rules were vague, I have a sneaking suspicion that hypothetical user would be out on his (or her) ear the very next time he (or she) crossed the newly-vague line. And given that he (or she) is the single most reported user at Graffe's in the past year, I don't think it would take very long for that to happen.

    Still want vague rules?

  3. #123
    Computer says no
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    More endless discussions about rules.
    Stick up a poll (lol!) and close the issue.

  4. #124

    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharrow View Post
    More endless discussions about rules.
    Stick up a poll (lol!) and close the issue.
    I agree. This is not about rules but about the death of the site.

  5. #125
    The Bullhorn

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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Why have a website? The remaining five or six people and their alts who are actually interested in interacting with each other can use facebook or some other social media.

  6. #126
    Elder Arcanist

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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by muddvz View Post
    Why have a website? The remaining five or six people and their alts who are actually interested in interacting with each other can use facebook or some other social media.
    Nobody is forcing you to stay...

  7. #127
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by muddvz View Post
    Why have a website? The remaining five or six people and their alts who are actually interested in interacting with each other can use facebook or some other social media.
    ~200 active, registered users in any month.

  8. #128
    The Bullhorn

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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Eremius View Post
    Nobody is forcing you to stay...
    Nobody has forbidden me from posting in this forum either. The question remains, why have a website?

  9. #129
    Formerly: Baelan Shadowbane
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by muddvz View Post
    Nobody has forbidden me from posting in this forum either. The question remains, why have a website?
    So you can threaten to have us shut down whenever you feel the need for some attention?

    "With your shield, or on it"

  10. #130
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by muddvz View Post
    Nobody has forbidden me from posting in this forum either.
    You are absolutely correct. You can post inane questions until you are blue in the fingertips.

    I will clarify since you can't seem to puzzle out the gist of my question:

    If you think there is no cause for a website why are you voluntarily coming here and posting?

    Was that more clear? If not, I have crayons...
    Last edited by Eremius; May 17th, 2012 at 09:12 AM.

  11. #131
    Lord Inquisitor Lenin
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Delores Mulva View Post
    Let's suppose a user of Graffe's was the single most reported user for the past year. Let's also suppose that the same user wrote something like this in a thread, revealing a mindset completely contrary to the level of civility desired at Graffe's:

    If the rules were vague, I have a sneaking suspicion that hypothetical user would be out on his (or her) ear the very next time he (or she) crossed the newly-vague line. And given that he (or she) is the single most reported user at Graffe's in the past year, I don't think it would take very long for that to happen.

    Still want vague rules?
    Yes, why would I care if I get modded? The point of discussing the ruleset isn't to figure out how to maintain my lucky streak of being rude enough to get reported but not quite rude enough to get modded, it's to figure out how to make the rules less of a hassle for everyone.

    In any event, if the rules were vague the mods would decide whether a given statement was against them and they would decide how to respond, just like they do now. The only difference is that they wouldn't have to worry about adhering to a ludicrous and poorly-written ruleset. They could say: I think this is a moddable offense, given the context, here are my reasons. And if a majority of the other mods agree with them then it would be, at least until the next elections. And people could argue, but they couldn't argue based on the ruleset, they would have to actually argue based on things that matter, like "was this behavior warranted or provoked?" and "is this really the sort of behavior we want to encourage here?" and "would disciplinary action in this case cause a chilling effect on legitimate discussion in the future?"

    Also, being most-reported user is a strangely gratifying distinction.

  12. #132
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    I don't really get into these moderator / rules / admin discussions all that much but I have to ask, in the past year have things really been so bad that we need to, fundamentally, change how this board is run? Personally, I think things run just fine as is and I'm pretty opposed to making broad, sweeping, changes in an attempt to fix a problem that isn't all that apparent. As such I think Voca's ultimatum is a solution in search of a problem. Yes there are arguments on this board and yest people insult others. Welcome to the internet. It's happened to me in both directions and I just learn which posters aren't really worth my time and move on.

    And let's face reality, this board has not been growing for some years and I don't think anyone really expects to see it do so again. Remember, this board was originally created to serve as a hub for Everquest wizards to talk trash, exchange ideas, and help out other Wizards as well. When WOW launched there was a drastic move away from EQ but this remained, primarily, a gaming board based around WOW. And when you look at the history of the posters, that's what you see represented. Most of us joined sometime in 2003 and have been here off and on ever since. We still talk gaming but we've also grown up and moved on with our lives and have other issues. Today I'm less worried about the finer points of quad-kiting toilers in Maiden's Eye as I am with making sure that the mortgage is paid on time.

    At the risk of swelling Dmitry's already over-sized ego, he's absolutely right. This board has slowed WAY down in the last few months. I think we have a good community here but face facts, we're likely to shrink over the coming years rather than grow.

    So some people might disagree with what I said or have different viewpoints or insights into the inner workings of Graffe's, but from my perspective things seem to have been running along fine from a moderating/rules standpoint. And I say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
    There are other worlds than these.

  13. #133
    The Bullhorn

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    Re: Finances and Administration

    You should justify the website before you ask members to contribute their money or volunteer time in an Administrative role.

  14. #134
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by muddvz View Post
    You should justify the website before you ask members to contribute their money or volunteer time in an Administrative role.
    If you don't feel it's justified, don't donate! Problem solved.

  15. #135
    Lord Inquisitor Lenin
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Get outta here.

  16. #136
    Lord Inquisitor Lenin
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Silke View Post
    I don't really get into these moderator / rules / admin discussions all that much but I have to ask, in the past year have things really been so bad that we need to, fundamentally, change how this board is run? Personally, I think things run just fine as is and I'm pretty opposed to making broad, sweeping, changes in an attempt to fix a problem that isn't all that apparent. As such I think Voca's ultimatum is a solution in search of a problem. Yes there are arguments on this board and yest people insult others. Welcome to the internet. It's happened to me in both directions and I just learn which posters aren't really worth my time and move on.

    And let's face reality, this board has not been growing for some years and I don't think anyone really expects to see it do so again. Remember, this board was originally created to serve as a hub for Everquest wizards to talk trash, exchange ideas, and help out other Wizards as well. When WOW launched there was a drastic move away from EQ but this remained, primarily, a gaming board based around WOW. And when you look at the history of the posters, that's what you see represented. Most of us joined sometime in 2003 and have been here off and on ever since. We still talk gaming but we've also grown up and moved on with our lives and have other issues. Today I'm less worried about the finer points of quad-kiting toilers in Maiden's Eye as I am with making sure that the mortgage is paid on time.

    At the risk of swelling Dmitry's already over-sized ego, he's absolutely right. This board has slowed WAY down in the last few months. I think we have a good community here but face facts, we're likely to shrink over the coming years rather than grow.

    So some people might disagree with what I said or have different viewpoints or insights into the inner workings of Graffe's, but from my perspective things seem to have been running along fine from a moderating/rules standpoint. And I say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
    I'm inclined to agree with the solution in search for a problem thing. I don't think the ruleset really, honestly matters at this point anyway.

  17. #137
    Formerly: Baelan Shadowbane
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Then fine, don't take Voca up on her offer to help. JFC you people act like she held a gun to board's head. The woman has been fronting the board for damn near 6 months and its come to an end. She offers to continue to help with some conditions and she been insulted,her motives questioned and generally treated like shit by a bunch of useless fucks who DONT financially support the board. It's great that now some folks have stepped up but goddamn Graffes proves the old adage "No good deed goes unpunished"

    Fuck the lot of you ungrateful bastards.

    "With your shield, or on it"

  18. #138
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Calling Voca's post an ultimatum is asinine and alarmist. Something has to be done. She gave us one option, while reminding us that other options exist. You may not like the option she offered, but let's not start screaming admin abuse just yet.

  19. #139
    The Unseeing Eye
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    Problem #1: There is no money to pay future operating expenses.
    Problem #2: The admin is $500 in the hole on top of that.

    Solution #1: Voca takes it back up with some rule changes, and people fork out the cash to keep it running.
    Solution #2: Someone else takes it up, with or without rule changes, and people fork out the cash to keep it running.
    Solution #3: It goes away when the money runs out. (Probably sooner, rather than later.)

    Am I missing a solution to Problem #1?

  20. #140
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    Re: Finances and Administration

    The problems Graffe's faces, as other posters have described, are really quite straight-forward, but they are also strategic problems, rather than simple or tactical ones to solve. At its core, Graffe's lacks a purpose or a clear value proposition to encourage growth, so, instead of being a destination website with appeal, it is instead a shrinking, quieting, (some may say "dying") social club. A lot of social clubs are in this situation, so this is not a unique problem. But confronting the strategic problem means being honest about the site's problems and not deluding yourself into thinking it's just a question of who is at the helm running the show, because that's not really going to change things much (except perhaps accelerate the impending death).

    So, if strategically, the site lacks purpose -- and that this has turned it into a social club -- then, we should treat it like the social club that it is. Social Clubs have member dues that help them maintain their clubhouse expenses, and that's basically what this website is: a clubhouse. So charge for the privilege of being here.

    My suggestion: Two tiers of membership -- free and premium. Free users can read and post, but that's it. Premium users get access to avatars, blogs, large PM boxes, and other product features from the vBulletin suite. I'd be happy to go through the vB4 User Group permissions with Nadiar to offer suggestions on differentiating between free and premium access. Restrict voting/running for mod to premium users, as well; this ensures that only people who are invested in Graffe.com's and have skin in the game can be entrusted with a say in how it's run.

    If you don't want to change the causes of this site's strategic failure (its lack of focus), you can at the very least confront the tactical money problem by treating Graffe.com for what it is: a social club.

    Respectfully,
    Kaelon

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