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Thread: What exactly is a hostile environment?

  1. #81
    Mr. Angsty Spice
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    Help help Dmitry's being repressed....


    This has happened in a work environment where I was the boss. My response was to go to the girl who was supposedly being harassed and ask her, in as supportive a manner as possible, if she felt uncomfortable with anything, if she wanted me to take any actions, and to let her know if she ever did feel uncomfortable about anything to let me know. It was not my position to assume I knew what she felt was harassment and what was just joking around between coworkers. Given that nobody at Graffe's is worried about losing their jobs or being ostracized by the rest of the community for snitching, this method of doing things is even more relevant than it was in my workplace.
    Right, and you are aware of course that at least one of our openly gay members gave Dmitry as being one of the reasons for leaving...
    I've got beer to drink and You guys are wasting my time.

  2. #82
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    Quote Originally Posted by DmitrytheWizzy View Post
    Because no one goes out of the way to protect those classes unreasonably. Just the opposite, jews can be roundly derided here with no repercussions.
    This is patently false. He's playing some of you guys like you're one of his juries.

  3. #83
    Lord Inquisitor Lenin
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    I don't believe there's a single racial group that can be "roundly derided here with no repercussions". There are a few religious groups (Mormons, certainly Scientologists), but I think the board has largely decided that religious affiliation is a choice and is therefore fair game for mockery.

  4. #84
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    I think Delores hits the nail on the head.

    That said, I think it's inaccurate to suggest this site has objective normative values, or to set expectations that somehow this is supposed to be a public or professional place. Community members here have gone through a pretty vigorous process of self-selecting who they want to be a part of this community - through friendships, ostracisms, and yes, harassment. As a consequence, the few regulars that remain on this forum have created an environment that is hostile to conservatives, traditionalists, people of faith, and, to a lesser extent, legal professionals who try to argue that the way the community runs this forum is hypocritical.

    There is nothing wrong with this. Boards should be run however their owners want them to be run; that is their right, just as it is the right of users to leave communities and choose to participate in ones that are welcoming to them. But don't try to pretend that anything about how this forum is run - from its rules to their enforcement, to the tone of subjective "civility" and the way the "community" engages in self-selection - is some form of enlightened democracy or fairness in any way, shape or form. The reality here is just an aggregated reflection of what its participants want it to be; nothing more, nothing less. That it drives away a lot of people and has contributed to the consistent decline of activity on this forum is something that is very easy to statistically measure by examining the number of monthly posts and active user accounts and their downward plunge over the past few years.

    But people here make the bed they want to sleep in. And they determine who they want to sleep in it. Conservatives, traditionalists, the faithful, and legal professionals need not apply.

  5. #85
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelon View Post
    I think Delores hits the nail on the head.

    That said, I think it's inaccurate to suggest this site has objective normative values, or to set expectations that somehow this is supposed to be a public or professional place. Community members here have gone through a pretty vigorous process of self-selecting who they want to be a part of this community - through friendships, ostracisms, and yes, harassment. As a consequence, the few regulars that remain on this forum have created an environment that is hostile to conservatives, traditionalists, people of faith, and, to a lesser extent, legal professionals who try to argue that the way the community runs this forum is hypocritical.

    There is nothing wrong with this. Boards should be run however their owners want them to be run; that is their right, just as it is the right of users to leave communities and choose to participate in ones that are welcoming to them. But don't try to pretend that anything about how this forum is run - from its rules to their enforcement, to the tone of subjective "civility" and the way the "community" engages in self-selection - is some form of enlightened democracy or fairness in any way, shape or form. The reality here is just an aggregated reflection of what its participants want it to be; nothing more, nothing less. That it drives away a lot of people and has contributed to the consistent decline of activity on this forum is something that is very easy to statistically measure by examining the number of monthly posts and active user accounts and their downward plunge over the past few years.

    But people here make the bed they want to sleep in. And they determine who they want to sleep in it. Conservatives, traditionalists, the faithful, and legal professionals need not apply.
    Well said.

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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    As a faithful conservative traditionalist I'd be very interested in knowing what should be done to make other faithful, conservative traditionalists feel more comfortable here, while at the same time making sure the place remains receptive to people who are not faithful, conservative traditionalists. I'd also love to see a direct link established between allowing Dmitry to post his slurs and this place being more comfortable to faith, traditionalism, and conservativism.

    No restrictions have been placed on the rule set other than general ones Graffe set in stone ages ago. What should be done within our process to do what you want?

  7. #87
    Lord Inquisitor Lenin
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    But people here make the bed they want to sleep in. And they determine who they want to sleep in it. Conservatives, traditionalists, the faithful, and legal professionals need not apply.
    Lol I love it. The board is prejudiced against lawyers!

  8. #88
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    You would argue that we aren't? Man, the whole world is prejudiced against lawyers.
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  9. #89
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    By design even lawyers are prejudiced against lawyers.
    ------------------------------------------
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  10. #90
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    Thanks, Daph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grindel View Post
    As a faithful conservative traditionalist I'd be very interested in knowing what should be done to make other faithful, conservative traditionalists feel more comfortable here, while at the same time making sure the place remains receptive to people who are not faithful, conservative traditionalists. I'd also love to see a direct link established between allowing Dmitry to post his slurs and this place being more comfortable to faith, traditionalism, and conservativism.

    No restrictions have been placed on the rule set other than general ones Graffe set in stone ages ago. What should be done within our process to do what you want?
    Frankly, it doesn't matter what "I" want. Like I said, board owners have a right to run their forums however they want, and users have a right to go where they feel welcome. That said, as I've stated before, the entire rule system, and "your process", are a joke. They're an abdication of administrative responsibility and a deference to the community's self-selection, which, despite attempts to make them seem forward-looking and enlightened, are just ridiculous games of high school politics. So, it's not surprising that what this board has become is exactly what the community members want it to be. It's just a popularity contest, and if you're not with the mob, you're their target.

    It shouldn't be surprising that dissenting views and minority perspectives do not stand much of a chance here against the machinery that you and other admins before you have set up.

    Again - I want to stress - there is nothing wrong with this. But it's not the way you go about growing a community; it's a perfect recipe for shrinking it. As Graffe's has become smaller and more exclusive, its community has also become less diverse and more narrow-minded. This happens anywhere that you have a hands-off administration team that allows users to basically define themselves. Because it's less diverse, it's also less welcoming of divergent views or positions that deviate from the mainstream. Torcer once derided this place as an "Obama circle-jerk", but it could also be called an "Agnostics & Atheists circle-jerk", a "Progressives circle-jerk", a "Pro-Choice circle-jerk", and so-on and so-forth. The only way to build diversity in a situation like this requires a heavy-handed administration to step in and say that some topics are too divisive to be discussed constructively, and end it at that. The same way Dmitry's "anti-gay" (real or perceived) posts are ruthlessly moderated should be the same way that anti-Republican, anti-Religion, anti-Israeli views should be ruthlessly moderated.

    But this is absolutely not what this community wants or will tolerate, because the administrators of this site have decided to turn over the day-to-day of making tough decisions over to the public. That's perfectly fine, because there are much better places to discuss politics, religion, and other controversial topics -- places that are diverse, have larger user bases, and that a single viewpoint isn't drowning out the dissenting or divergent views. But to grow this site to become that, you would have to be an administrator like an administrator at one of the larger more successful sites -- banning trouble-makers decisively, moderating consistently and pro-actively to end divisive conversations or disruptive topics, and to flat out actually run a community towards the idea that it should grow, become more diverse, and inclusive towards people.

    It may very well be too late for that here on Graffe's, because the regulars who remain here have made this place their own. It is what they want it to be, and they will fight tooth and nail for any attempts to make it something else. Just don't come here expecting any intelligent or respectful debates on the issues, because the moment you express something that shocks the sensitivities of the majority, they will moderate you out of existence by harassing you across threads. And, again, that's fine. But don't pretend this site is anything other than a one-view-fits-all internet argueboard.

  11. #91
    Mr. Angsty Spice
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    Again - I want to stress - there is nothing wrong with this. But it's not the way you go about growing a community; it's a perfect recipe for shrinking it. As Graffe's has become smaller and more exclusive, its community has also become less diverse and more narrow-minded. This happens anywhere that you have a hands-off administration team that allows users to basically define themselves. Because it's less diverse, it's also less welcoming of divergent views or positions that deviate from the mainstream. Torcer once derided this place as an "Obama circle-jerk", but it could also be called an "Agnostics & Atheists circle-jerk", a "Progressives circle-jerk", a "Pro-Choice circle-jerk", and so-on and so-forth. The only way to build diversity in a situation like this requires a heavy-handed administration to step in and say that some topics are too divisive to be discussed constructively, and end it at that. The same way Dmitry's "anti-gay" (real or perceived) posts are ruthlessly moderated should be the same way that anti-Republican, anti-Religion, anti-Israeli views should be ruthlessly moderated.
    So....

    the way to be a free community is to have a leader who squashes any discussion he doesn't like...
    I've got beer to drink and You guys are wasting my time.

  12. #92
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    So....

    the way to be a free community is to have a leader who squashes any discussion he doesn't like...
    No. The way to be an "inclusive, growing, diverse community" is to have an administrator willing to outlaw any topic that is incendiary, close any and all threads when they become too heated, abusive, or disruptive, and discipline/moderate/ban the jerks, even the jerks who happen to be popular and with the majority, and not just the unpopular ones. But because administration on this site is a joke - and has been basically turned over to the users to police themselves - you have a situation where the site is dwindling, the community is tiny, and activity is pretty much dying out. If you want to stop it, it takes a lot of work and sacrifice - but, I don't think anyone cares anymore.

  13. #93
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    Kaelon, every board that does what you are saying has a specific purpose. Whether it be politics, gaming, or books or big jugs or whatever. Graffes doesn't have a purpose other than to be a community exactly as you describe. We don't have an "on-topic" section anymore, in other words. For an admin to do what you are suggesting, you have to have guidelines about the topics that can be posted.

    In other words, at a politics board people come specifically for the politics and would probably be upset if someone tried to turn it into a car maintenance board. Having a focus like that gives mods a framework. I was a mod for the gaming forum section only for a bit. It was cool! It had a focus. OT, not so much. And its simply no fun and not easy to direct people when there is no place to direct them.
    Last edited by Lunal; April 18th, 2011 at 12:22 PM.
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  14. #94
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    If the site's dying, then how come it continually tops the search rankings for multiple topics? Kaelon, I think you make a lot of windy noise in fine pseudointellectual form, but essentially you have nothing going on under your hat. I mean, you return to this Moderation topic like a dog returning to his own vomit, over and over again.

    Truth is, Dmitry is directly responsible for people leaving this site, with his gay baiting games and the odd way the Moderators never ban him for longer than a week no matter what he does or how many incidents occur. And it always seems more pleasant when Dmitry is gone. I am looking forward to the day he gores the wrong ox and finally gets banned for a full year.

  15. #95
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alikat Astrae View Post
    If the site's dying, then how come it continually tops the search rankings for multiple topics?
    Magic bunnies obviously.
    Kaelon, I think you make a lot of windy noise in fine pseudointellectual form, but essentially you have nothing going on under your hat.
    AMEN. Kaelon, you said a lot of well-worded bullshit. Your 'ideal' forum would be 4chan I assume. Lots of unregulated e-diarrhea from single post bots probably.
    Truth is, Dmitry is directly responsible for people leaving this site, with his gay baiting games and the odd way the Moderators never ban him for longer than a week no matter what he does or how many incidents occur. And it always seems more pleasant when Dmitry is gone. I am looking forward to the day he gores the wrong ox and finally gets banned for a full year.
    I'm just amazed how much this returns to 'oh poor Dmitry is being persecuted' when he's holding the handle of the flamethrower. Alikat is spot on in all of these comments.
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  16. #96
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunal View Post
    Kaelon, every board that does what you are saying has a specific purpose. Whether it be politics, gaming, or books or big jugs or whatever. Graffes doesn't have a purpose other than to be a community exactly as you describe. We don't have an "on-topic" section anymore, in other words. For an admin to do what you are suggesting, you have to have guidelines about the topics that can be posted.

    In other words, at a politics board people come specifically for the politics and would probably be upset if someone tried to turn it into a car maintenance board. Having a focus like that gives mods a framework. I was a mod for the gaming forum section only for a bit. It was cool! It had a focus. OT, not so much. And its simply no fun and not easy to direct people when there is no place to direct them.
    You are entirely correct, Lunal. Without a specific focus or niche, Graffe's is just another general chat forum, only not cool. The site needs a purpose and a focus, otherwise, it will continue to decline without a clear moderation framework since there are many better alternatives for general off-topic chit-chat in places that are more frequently trafficked.

    So, in short, I agree with you.

  17. #97
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alikat Astrae View Post
    If the site's dying, then how come it continually tops the search rankings for multiple topics? Kaelon, I think you make a lot of windy noise in fine pseudointellectual form, but essentially you have nothing going on under your hat. I mean, you return to this Moderation topic like a dog returning to his own vomit, over and over again.

    Truth is, Dmitry is directly responsible for people leaving this site, with his gay baiting games and the odd way the Moderators never ban him for longer than a week no matter what he does or how many incidents occur. And it always seems more pleasant when Dmitry is gone. I am looking forward to the day he gores the wrong ox and finally gets banned for a full year.
    Search rankings do not equal activity; the only thing a search engine result tells you is how relevant the static content on a page relates to the search query performed. From an activity perspective, only someone living in denial would claim that Graffe's does not continue to decline in activity, month-over-month and year-over-year. Simply ask any administrator to go into the vBulletin Control Panel and pull up the posting and active user statistics module. More plainly, you can see this yourself by looking at how many topics have actively been posted a year ago; and, how many users actively visit the site as compared to how many used to a couple of years ago. It's a long-standing trend, and moderation (and community self-selection) is indirectly responsible for it. Administration, and lack of clear site focus, is directly responsible.

    Dmitry is not innocent, and I am not interested in defending him. However, his antics are a symptom of the problem that he (either intentionally or unintentionally) points out - the fact that the rules are ridiculous, they are hypocritically and inconsistently enforced, and as a consequence, this place has become a place that only welcomes people who conform to the views held by the shrinking elite. While it may be "more pleasant when Dmitry is gone" -- and while he is certainly a jerk and probably does deserve a banning for his abusive and disruptive posts -- I think what you are trying to convey is that those who remain on this board find that it's more pleasant when it's just one big sounding board where everyone is saying the same thing. That's perfectly fine - just don't try to pretend like you actually welcome divergent views, and don't insult my intelligence by posting rules that we all know are irrelevant because moderators won't consistently enforce them.

    That's all I really have to say about this, this time. I'm sure I will raise it again in the future, but eventually, I'm sure that I will join others and just stop caring about what this place could have been and just accept it for what it has become: Irrelevant.

  18. #98
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    You would argue that we aren't? Man, the whole world is prejudiced against lawyers.
    I'd argue that it doesn't matter if we are, and complaining about it is just Kaelon's usual meaningless whining.

  19. #99
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    I don't think Kaelon's posts are meaningless at all; I don't agree with all his points but I think he's absolutely correct in some of them. He's certainly given me a lot to mull over, although the chances of me deciding to go all King Admin on this board at this juncture are slim to none. Thankfully he's put things in more complex terms than we've been discussing up to now, but the reality is even more complex than that, from my perspective.

  20. #100
    Lord Inquisitor Lenin
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    Re: What exactly is a hostile environment?

    If you ever think Kaelon is making a valid point just dig a little deeper. Chances are he's just lying about stuff.

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