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Thread: AOE group - specifics on the Enchanter's role?

  1. #1
    ddubois
    Guest

    AOE group - specifics on the Enchanter's role?


    This is the chart of PBAE enchanter stuns:
    Code:
     
    Level  Name              Max Duration   Casting Time   Recast Time   Mana cost
     4      Color Flux        4.0            1.0            12.0          20
     20     Color Shift       6.0            1.5            12.0          40
     44     Color Skew        8.0            2.0            12.0          60
     52     Color Slant       8.0            1.5            12.0          125
    In normal grouping situations, the conventional wisdom is that Flux and Shift are the only stun spells an enchanter needs to have up. Flux's super low casting time and low level makes it extremely easy to get off uninterruptted and/or to channel, and a follow-up Shift stuns the MOB long enough to let you cast something from the mesmerise line unimpeded. Most feel the relatively long casting time of Skew, and the higher casting cost of Slant, make these spells inferior to the two early stuns.

    I'm guessing conventional wisdom goes out the window in an AoE group.

    1) Which stun line-up do your enchanters use? Do they make a multi-line macro to just "/cast 1" for flux, "/cast 2" for shift, "/cast 3" for skew, and "/cast 4" for slant, and then just slam that macro over and over, letting the ungreying of the icons control the rate and pacing of the stuns, or is there some timing I should be attempting to acheive? Mathematically, shift/slant gives you complete coverage, but I suspect resists muck that up and force a change of strategy.

    Aside from stuns, I have a few general AE questions:

    2) How do I instruct my puller to get sufficient number of MOBs? I would expect the average puller is unaccomstumed to the idea of seeing a group of MOBs and then running right through them to grab an additional group or two futher down another corridor. Is that exactly what they do? And they don't get stunned and killed on the return route back in?

    3) Would it behoove first-time AEers to use a second enchanter instead of a 3rd damager for a safer experience until we get accustomed to it?

    I am a level 54 enchanter, and from what I have read so far, I expect my first AE group will be in sebellis disco area. I have some questions about this area in particular:

    4) Do you typically AE your way into the disco area, killing the zone and hallway frogs by pulling large trains back to the group, then moving forward, or do people typically fight "normal", until they get to their designated camp site?

    5) Are some places in the disco better than others for setting up camp? (My "normal" groups fight our way into the first room on the right, near Gruplenort, I think it's the pickler room, with the heads in that jars. Will this area be good?) Am I looking for partcular attributes in a camp site, like a cramped area, something with right-angle corners, or particular kind of pathing?

    6) How should I arrange myself with the rest of the group? Typically, I like to be jammed into a corner when I am being hit by MOBs, as it increases my chance of channeling through hits. Would that be appropriate here, or should I allow the puller to run into a corner, with myself positioned near that corner but far enough away to stun both the MOBs that are on him and some of the MOBs that are along the pull path to that corner? Should the wizards position themselves to face the corner, meanwhile facing me, and use push back AEs to get MOBs into that corner? Presumably we want the cleric somewhere that is out of the pull path so that MOBs don't stop to attack him, but then again, we want the cleric within the area of protection of the stuns?

    7) Am I over-analyzing this? Maybe you can AE anywhere, as long as you pack the group tight, and use non-kickback wizard AE?


  2. #2
    Grimstaff Theurgist
    Guest

    I can't answer specific questions about Sebilis Disco as I haven't fought in there, but I'll do what I can to help out:

    1) Which stun line-up do your enchanters use?

    The usual way the Enchanter runs things is to memorize at least 3 stun spells by level 44 and cycle between them to overlap effect. Because of the hold time on each one, this allows the Enchanter to continously cast spells. I'd personally avoid a cast/pause hotkey because it WILL go off the way you programmed it no matter what you try to do. Thus, it will interrupt and disrupt what you are trying to do by triggering the commands you gave even if there is a fizzle or you are interrupted.

    2) How do I instruct my puller to get sufficient number of MOBs?

    The best way is for you to start with smaller groups and build up to what you can control and handle. One method that works well in some places is to hurt a green and let it run about spreading the news - but you need a runner greeny and a limited number of bad guys. Too many will lag you out and end in butchery, too few will be a waste of time, and you need that greeny to come back to die.

    3) Would it behoove first-time AEers to use a second enchanter instead of a 3rd damager for a safer experience until we get accustomed to it?

    Probably the best starting way is 2 enchanters, one good healer, two blasters and a puller. In fact, many times that's a good way to do it. You dont NEED both enchanters, but it is nice to have that safety margin. Creatures die considerably faster with another AE blaster.

    I am a level 54 enchanter, and from what I have read so far, I expect my first AE group will be in sebellis disco area. I have some questions about this area in particular:

    6) How should I arrange myself with the rest of the group?

    The best way is to get yourself near a corner, as close as you possibly can get to the AE blasters. You need to be near them so that your PBAE stun template will match as closely as possible their PBAE damage template. The healer won't be aggroed, he won't even be noticed, the monsters have two priorities: 1) the stunner, because its really annoying, and 2) the guys blowing them up. Healing has tiny aggro compared to all that. The healer needs just to be close enough to get a good update and accurate read on people's life.

    7) Am I over-analyzing this? Maybe you can AE anywhere, as long as you pack the group tight, and use non-kickback wizard AE?

    Actually you WANT the kickback AE. The best way to do PBAE blasting is to cram the monsters into a pocket or corner so they stay in a nice tight formation and die in a neat pile. They will tend to run around and try to get a good attack at you when not stunned, and its in everyone's best interest for them to stay packed in and zonked by your PBAE stun line. Thunderclap pushes everything that doesn't resist it the direction the Wizard is facing, even creatures behind him. This will work in your favor.

    I hope that helps you some, I have an extensive analysis of PBAE blasting on my website:

    http://www.angelfire.com/or2/Wizards/myztic.html




  3. #3
    ddubois
    Guest

    I tried my first AE group this weekend, and I wanted to share my experiences here. First the group composition: 59 warrior, 56 cleric, 54 enchanter (me), 57 enchanter, 57 wizard, 59 wizard. The end result was that in about 4 hours, even with two fairly lengthy CRs, I made almost 4 blue bubbles in a tough level for XPing. I was very happy with the results, and want to do it again ASAP.

    Some tidbits:

    1.) Only one wizard in the group had done AE before. He was a tad on the brave side . He orchestrated the progress of the event. He had the puller bring back a batch, but then rather than kill right away, he would have the puller go bring back another batch, and then another batch, until we had a pile deemed worthy of killing or the enchanters were getting low on stun mana. Typically I would burn over 50% of my mana bar stunning and waiting for more MOBs before the wizards would actually start nuking.

    2.) As such, our biggest kill was 25 MOBs. Pretty good for a first-timer.

    3.) The wizards didn't use knockback AEs, they used one of the Jylls.

    4.) We didn't try to position ourselves in any particular manner. Any spot seemed to work, hallways or rooms. I felt more comfortable with enclosed areas because of stun reach, but it didn't seem to matter. MOBs would tend to walk into the stun radius eventually on their own; a few times they stopped to nuke before doing so (a reasonable arguement for setting up around a corner), but that didn't seem to matter much either. With two enchanters we had little trouble keeping them locked down.

    5.) I was surprised that I had to move. As new MOBs came in, they would tend to get staggered, and I would have to move towards the middle of the bunch to keep them all locked down. It was more chaotic clustering than I had imagined. Actually, it's not clear that I needed to move, per se, as they might wake up and move to me, but it seemed appropriate, and I was instructed to, so I did.

    6.) I used my /cast 1, /cast 2, /cast 3, /cast 4 chain-stun macro (no pauses in the macro), but kept experimenting with which stuns in which positions. I still haven't settled on what's best. I think I may go back to my initial idea of orgainizing them according to casting time, in order to prioritize them by which stun is easier to get off when I get hit and stuns start to get interupted. I.e., Flux Shift Slant Skew. I noticed the 4th stun would often get left out of the cycle because stun #1 would ungrey after casting #3, although that may have only been with certain line-ups, and may have been dependent on the lag of me recasting.

    7.) I did no stun syncing with the other enchanter. We both just cycled our stuns as if we were solo.

    8.) I spent a bit of time trying to determine if I needed to chain as fast as possible, or if I should try to time when I cast the next stun based on the stun length of my last-cast stun. I'm still not sure if there's room for this kind of 'optimization'. I did notice that I would tend to get hit more if I tried to get fancy with timing, so it may be that the best tactic is to just keep slamming the button.

    9.) We had one time when puller died before getting back to camp.

    10.) We had one pull session that was followed by pops and runners we weren't able to control that ended up turning into an evac; I died in that one because I kept getting resummoned by a iils wizard and couldn't get a mez on it.

    11.) We had one complete wipeout where some unfortunate timing allowed alot of MOBs to wake up and squish everyone. I'm not sure what exactly happened in that last case. I found out afterwards the other enchanter was cycling in a Winds of Tashini at that moment in time, and it's possible I was a little slow on the stuns (trying to optimize as I mentioned in point #7). It's also possible I was trying to cycle in a Theft of Thought at the worst possible moment. After he went down I was able to get one or two stuns off, and I thought there was a chance I might regain control, but resists very quickly avalanched into instant death.

    12.) We had over a dozen pulls of 10+ MOBs that went fabulously.

    13.) I think not having a bard puller was missed. I have to think that having an AE song expediates the aggroing/pulling process, and therefore minimizes the return trips to fetch more. AE damage DOT song can't be bad either. On the other thand, the warrior was very happy that he got to play with his otherwise-useless AE proccing weapon .


  4. #4
    Grimstaff Theurgist
    Guest

    Well, I can understand wanting to have a huge pile of guys, but I'd vote against parking monsters with stuns just to get more. That seems unneccessarily risky and dangerous to the puller. No reason to get greedy, this isn't a contest to see who can get the biggest kill pile.

    The 'moving' part you mentioned is why Thunderclap is a good idea. Pushback makes the bad guys tend to stay in one spot and cluster nicely. Even with Jyll's I'd suggest cycling between that and Thunderclap for that and the fact that you will keep a continuous stream of death pounding on the bad guys.

    Sounds like it went well, it's not atypical to have a total party wipeout in my experience.

  5. #5
    MyztiC
    Guest

    The thing I love about bards isn't AOE pulling or AOE dot... but that AOE snare/slow thing they get at 53.

    And as to parking mobs to get more... in good old days AE Mez was good for it. Now when it is capped at 5 mobs (or so)... the stuns may be good alternative.

    When 2 enchanters are overlapping stuns, there used to be (haven't tested in about half a year) a problem. The last stun to hit determines the duration... so if you cast 44th stun and right after the friend casts 4th stun... the duration is picked from the 4th stun.

    -myz

  6. #6
    linger2
    Guest

    I have done AE groups extensively and experimented some. BEST combination I have found has always been:

    enchanter
    wizard
    wizard
    cleric
    cleric
    bard

    others are quite possible and functional, but that is simply the best. Ideally, you have both wizards 56+ and the bard with cantana and slow. Pulls are done with combination of enchanter and bard. celestial healing or elixir for pulls is a must to reduce pull risk to almost nothing. EVERYONE should always have symbol up.

    With that combo, given a good enough enchanter (MUST have enchanter with good HP bonuses etc), your only enemy is lag and ld Find a group with connections you trust and enjoy the best fun in EQ.

  7. #7
    ranthrathan
    Guest

    clerics use DL and CH...and one other i forget...
    chanters use 3 stuns....cast em like crazy...dont worry about timing..just constantly hit those hotkeys
    wizards use both jylls if ya got em, otherwise thunderclap and jylls...jylls is a knockback in and of itself
    warriors and paladins make best pullers...
    bards are very welcome.


    best group imho is:
    2 wizards (56+ for two jylls)
    1 pali/war (55+ is nice)
    1 56+ cleric
    1 55+ enchanter(57+ depending where you are at)
    1 50ish bard (mana song to speed up process and extra tank to kill locals/singles)

  8. #8
    Bethude
    Guest

    "1.) Only one wizard in the group had done AE before. He was a tad on the brave side . He orchestrated the progress of the event. He had the puller bring back a batch, but then rather than kill right away, he would have the puller go bring back another batch, and then another batch, until we had a pile deemed worthy of killing or the enchanters were getting low on stun mana. Typically I would burn over 50% of my mana bar stunning and waiting for more MOBs before the wizards would actually start nuking."

    Getting extra batches is fine AFTER your group gets its routine down. It's important to find your breaking point and realize what your mob limit is and be sure not to exceed it. The fact that you're using two enchanters gives you extra safety in case of lag, ld, and grabbing extra batches without going oom.

    "2.) As such, our biggest kill was 25 MOBs. Pretty good for a first-timer."

    Nice

    "3.) The wizards didn't use knockback AEs, they used one of the Jylls."

    Jyll's Static Pulse (53) is a knocback aoe. It doesn't knocback anywhere near as hard as Thunderbold or Thunderclap, but it is a knockback aoe and can be used for positioning. It is very likely that your 57 wizard was using Static Pulse since he only has two post 50 PBAOEs at this point.

    "4.) We didn't try to position ourselves in any particular manner. Any spot seemed to work, hallways or rooms. I felt more comfortable with enclosed areas because of stun reach, but it didn't seem to matter. MOBs would tend to walk into the stun radius eventually on their own; a few times they stopped to nuke before doing so (a reasonable arguement for setting up around a corner), but that didn't seem to matter much either. With two enchanters we had little trouble keeping them locked down."

    With a two enchanter team the only thing that matters for positioning is that you guys hang close to each other because our AoEs don't have as large a range as your higher level stuns and you want to make sure the mobs are bundled up enough so we can nail them all.

    "5.) I was surprised that I had to move. As new MOBs came in, they would tend to get staggered, and I would have to move towards the middle of the bunch to keep them all locked down. It was more chaotic clustering than I had imagined. Actually, it's not clear that I needed to move, per se, as they might wake up and move to me, but it seemed appropriate, and I was instructed to, so I did."

    Let them move to you. There's no huge rush and the most important thing is that the enchanter should NEVER have mobs behind him. It is easier for a mob to stun you if your back is to him. Being stunned was probably not an issue for you since you had two enchanters but if you had only one like most aoe teams, that could cause you big trouble.

    "6.) I used my /cast 1, /cast 2, /cast 3, /cast 4 chain-stun macro (no pauses in the macro), but kept experimenting with which stuns in which positions. I still haven't settled on what's best. I think I may go back to my initial idea of orgainizing them according to casting time, in order to prioritize them by which stun is easier to get off when I get hit and stuns start to get interupted. I.e., Flux Shift Slant Skew. I noticed the 4th stun would often get left out of the cycle because stun #1 would ungrey after casting #3, although that may have only been with certain line-ups, and may have been dependent on the lag of me recasting."

    I don't play an enchanter anymore so I won't pretend to be an expert on this. However, I would probably save color flux for emergencies since if you get a bunch of resists and start getting hit, it's 1 second cast time could save your butt.

    "7.) I did no stun syncing with the other enchanter. We both just cycled our stuns as if we were solo."

    I've never used two enchanters for aoe, so I have no insight to offer on that. However, I think it would be very difficult to really sync the stuns well.

    "8.) I spent a bit of time trying to determine if I needed to chain as fast as possible, or if I should try to time when I cast the next stun based on the stun length of my last-cast stun. I'm still not sure if there's room for this kind of 'optimization'. I did notice that I would tend to get hit more if I tried to get fancy with timing, so it may be that the best tactic is to just keep slamming the button."

    The enchanter I usually do this with will optimize his stuns based on the length of the stun and the number of mobs that have resisted. This takes a lot of practice to get down but you will find it necessary if you ever do large batches with just yourself as the enchanter.

    "9.) We had one time when puller died before getting back to camp."

    Occupational hazard. Use CE or CelHeal before sending your puller off.

    "10.) We had one pull session that was followed by pops and runners we weren't able to control that ended up turning into an evac; I died in that one because I kept getting resummoned by a iils wizard and couldn't get a mez on it."

    Occupational hazard. AoE = high risk for high reward. As you found out, even with deaths you still did very well for yourself. With mobs that summon, there's always a chance it will go to hell in a handbasket depending on the timing of it all. With summoners it's SUPER important for the enchanter to make sure those mobs are stunned at ALL times.

    "11.) We had one complete wipeout where some unfortunate timing allowed alot of MOBs to wake up and squish everyone. I'm not sure what exactly happened in that last case. I found out afterwards the other enchanter was cycling in a Winds of Tashini at that moment in time, and it's possible I was a little slow on the stuns (trying to optimize as I mentioned in point #7). It's also possible I was trying to cycle in a Theft of Thought at the worst possible moment. After he went down I was able to get one or two stuns off, and I thought there was a chance I might regain control, but resists very quickly avalanched into instant death."

    NEVER cast spells like theft of thought in the middle of an aoe engagement. Stun and only stun. If you want to have the other chanter toss in winds then groovy, just make sure you know he's gonna do it so you got the stuns covered. Also, there's really no such thing as "regaining control." Once things become out of control you will almostly certainly die (barring a ton of luck).

    "12.) We had over a dozen pulls of 10+ MOBs that went fabulously."

    Grats! Does aoe rock or what?!?! Personally I can't stand regular groups anymore. So be careful because you will get spoiled.

    "13.) I think not having a bard puller was missed. I have to think that having an AE song expediates the aggroing/pulling process, and therefore minimizes the return trips to fetch more. AE damage DOT song can't be bad either. On the other thand, the warrior was very happy that he got to play with his otherwise-useless AE proccing weapon ."

    Bards are godly in aoe groups. I can't say enough good things about them. They pull better than anyone (thx aoe snare/slow), they aoe slow the mobs after they are pulled (makes it safer for all concerned), and they regen your mana fast so you can go kill a bunch more mobs sooner rather than later. :P

    To me, the best aoe group is whatever you can make work effectively and reliably for at least 12 mob pulls. The only thing I would say is essential to a truely great aoe group is at least 1 cleric, 1 bard, 1 chanter, and 2 wizards. The extra slot you can fill in however you like. Some like the safety of an extra enchanter and some prefer more offensive power and rather have a third wizard or mage (pet works nice for cleaing up the remaing one or two mobs).

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