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Thread: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

  1. #41
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Mod forum and reports should remain hidden. Moderator votes should be made public. If moderators are voted into the position, then the members should see a voting record in order to decide if they should be voted back into position on the next go round. That would be like congress keeping thier voting super secret.

  2. #42
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Yeah, how can we tell who to re-elect (or not) if your voting record is hidden?

  3. #43
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by Destructis View Post
    Mod forum and reports should remain hidden. Moderator votes should be made public. If moderators are voted into the position, then the members should see a voting record in order to decide if they should be voted back into position on the next go round. That would be like congress keeping thier voting super secret.
    As I think about it, I'm inclined to agree with Dest.

  4. #44
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    I heard a thunderclap when I read that.

  5. #45
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    I looked around for flying swine, myself. Though I agree with both of them ... at the same time ... guess Hitler's getting his ice skates out!

  6. #46
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    My only objection to it is that it is yet another reason to create drama. Flamebaiting, intentional or no. In fact, in that spirit, we shouldn't have an in between. Votes either should be mandated to be private or mandated to be public. Same goes for reports.
    Life has taught us that love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction.

  7. #47
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    To put it simply, without reports being public, how can there be any context for making voting decisions public?

    You can have an expectation of privacy for your reports, or a transparent history of mod votes... not both.
    You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways.

  8. #48
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Why not? Serious question.

  9. #49
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by HoranafofPrexus View Post
    To put it simply, without reports being public, how can there be any context for making voting decisions public?

    You can have an expectation of privacy for your reports, or a transparent history of mod votes... not both.
    Obviously the post being reported is already public. Everyone can see that post.

    If the policy were followed, then a thread would be made stating that there is a vote to be made on <insert post here>. Once the community has it's say, then a vote is taken. The results of that vote, and who voted what, should be made public.

    The report and who made it isn't necessary for us to know. We already see the offending post and that's really all we need to determine if we agree with the suspension or banning.

    I don't see what the report has to do with anything because the only thing kept from us about the report is who made it.

  10. #50
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by HoranafofPrexus View Post
    You can have an expectation of privacy for your reports, or a transparent history of mod votes... not both.
    That doesn't follow in the least, sorry.

  11. #51
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by Layonya View Post
    Why not? Serious question.
    Because if we have zero idea what the mods are actually doing, then we might as well vote for mods using a ouija board or a dart board.

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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grindel View Post
    That doesn't follow in the least, sorry.
    Actually it follows in the most, quite closely on the heels of the most in fact.

  13. #53
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alikat Astrae View Post
    Because if we have zero idea what the mods are actually doing, then we might as well vote for mods using a ouija board or a dart board.
    This puts what I was trying to say pretty clearly, but let me expand on it a bit.

    Let's have hypothetical report X. It was for, as seems to be the norm these days, a borderline rules violation, civility rule or such. Some mods agree, some mods don't see a problem, and some mods see it as an appeal to authority when they are not getting their way in an argument.

    Right now the rules are such a jumble (believe me i know, i have caught my share of hell just for trying to enforce them as written) that any of the above interpretations could be a valid one. Without knowing the who and the why, how is there any transparency as to why a decision was made in mater X and what that decision was?

    Personally, I have no problems with either way it could go. We can just say "poster was warned for rule X violation" and leave it at that, or we can give all the context for how the decision was reached. I just don't see how we can ay "He voted to rule this way, but you don't get to see the reasoning behind it or any extenuating circumstances.

    Either way, I will continue to post my reasoning in the thread I have to mod, or in any discussion of that thread. wether that becomes standard moderation guidelines is up to the community at large. I just have a problem with people thinking it's okay to only do it half way, that half being whichever they prefer.

    edit: damn new keyboard and its touchy space bar.
    You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways.

  14. #54
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    See, I'm more interested in what the mods don't do that what they do. For instance, if they don't go on a witch hunt after an individual poster. If they don't freak out when someone accuses them of being biased or hypocritical. Etc. The idea of a vote on banning or not being used as a basis for judging a mod's entire history is just silly.
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  15. #55
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunal View Post
    See, I'm more interested in what the mods don't do that what they do. For instance, if they don't go on a witch hunt after an individual poster. If they don't freak out when someone accuses them of being biased or hypocritical. Etc. The idea of a vote on banning or not being used as a basis for judging a mod's entire history is just silly.
    No one said it was sole basis of judging a mod's entire history. It is a part of the body of work. If you think I am saying it with this post...

    Mod forum and reports should remain hidden. Moderator votes should be made public. If moderators are voted into the position, then the members should see a voting record in order to decide if they should be voted back into position on the next go round. That would be like congress keeping thier voting super secret.
    Just consider this, would you vote for a member of congress only on thier voting record? I know I wouldn't, but I would take it into account if they are saying one thing and then voting for another. It gives the complete picture.

  16. #56
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Except we don't generally "vote" on reported posts. There may be discussion if something is borderline, but generally it's a case of the rule is broken, the post is reported, and it is handled. No voting needed.

  17. #57
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by Destructis View Post
    Just consider this, would you vote for a member of congress only on thier voting record? I know I wouldn't, but I would take it into account if they are saying one thing and then voting for another. It gives the complete picture.
    If the issue were a big enough one, I would vote for a congressperson only on their voting record. Perhaps only because of one particular vote, if I felt the stakes were high enough. Thats totally acceptable in my book.

    Here, in this small community, not quite analogous.

    Not that I have a problem with voting being revealed. Mainly, I just think it would create more drama to force-reveal that stuff, for very little if any gain.

    Honestly, this again seems to be about the Dmitry issue. Ban him or not, and people who just want to stack the mod team with people in the former camp for the next time he goes cuckoo. Just my opinion there.
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  18. #58
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    By "stacking the mod team," you mean that they want to elect mods who will enforce the rules the way they understood them when they voted on them, right? They want to have a more clear idea of what a mod does by making their actions public rather than by divining their actions through scrying chicken entrails. I think actually letting us know what the mods are doing is a good idea if you want to keep up this democracy thing. Secrets and democracy are a bad mix.

  19. #59
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by HoranafofPrexus View Post
    To put it simply, without reports being public, how can there be any context for making voting decisions public?

    You can have an expectation of privacy for your reports, or a transparent history of mod votes... not both.
    If full disclosure of all mod actions (including even just sending a PM in response to a report) is desired, it seems that it would be pretty easy to simply make a publicly viewable copy of report threads with the name of the original reporter stripped out. I'm assuming that even if a report is deemed unworthy of action, then a note is posted to the report thread by the mod who handles it (eg. "no action taken - PM sent to X explaining why"). Voila - reports are still private, mod decisions are public.

    It would probably be a fair bit of overhead work, but I honestly don't know how many posts are reported in a given day, so I'm not sure if this would be workable or not.

  20. #60
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Whats the point if you only see the vote on one issue, but don't see a hundred times when that mod made positive and useful contributions to a discussion about reports? All I am saying is that there is more to it than just voting. The reverse is also true, someone may have voted how you liked but in the background they are a big cheesy nightmare.

    Present mod company excepted.

    This is why I view open reporting, open mod discussions and open voting as the same importance. Rather than just having one, have all or none.
    Life has taught us that love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction.

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