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Thread: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

  1. #21
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maledict View Post
    There's no sign in my local restaurent saying "don't shit at the table", and wierdly enough people don't do it either.

    Apparently this is all part of some devious ploy to show the world I'm a hyopcritical dictator who rules the boards with an iron fist and crushes all dissent. Which seems a great waste of mine and everyone elses time when you could just post about it, but nevermind - the more drama and stress the better eh!
    Mama taught me a lot of things, including where to shit and where to eat, but Mama never said word one about the proper etiquette for moderating on a message board with an overblown idea of itself.

    I could just post about this stuff, and there are people who do on this board. Generally, they get ignored. Fortunately, I have the option of demonstrating my points, and it didn't take much for you to not only unilaterally impose a rule, but for you to take a private discussion public in order to get your way. Don't accuse me of fishing for drama when you were the one who decided to stop discussing privately and start discussing publicly.

  2. #22
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    I would like a rule for the 1000 possible bad things someone could do here that there aren't any rules for please - because by God if there isn't an explicit rule about it it MUST be allowable right?

    Absurd - if our moderator/admin team were making up petty rules on the fly I'd say sure be concerned, but a rule to prevent something that is already known to be against the community's wishes is hardly out of place.

    Has Graffes REALLY gone this far from the realm of common sense or are people just grasping to manufacture outrage?

    You CAN'T have an all-inclusive ruleset. We have to allow our mod/admin team to use their judgment in some cases. This one isn't even a stretch - it is applying the no report rule to include the mod team from tattling after the fact.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arinath View Post
    I would like a rule for the 1000 possible bad things someone could do here that there aren't any rules for please - because by God if there isn't an explicit rule about it it MUST be allowable right?

    Absurd - if our moderator/admin team were making up petty rules on the fly I'd say sure be concerned, but a rule to prevent something that is already known to be against the community's wishes is hardly out of place.

    Has Graffes REALLY gone this far from the realm of common sense or are people just grasping to manufacture outrage?

    You CAN'T have an all-inclusive ruleset. We have to allow our mod/admin team to use their judgment in some cases. This one isn't even a stretch - it is applying the no report rule to include the mod team from tattling after the fact.
    Getting you up to speed on the discussion again: We have a provision in the rules which cover unanticipated situations. This situation is definitely not unanticipated. However, the way we're operating it is as "well, you really shouldn't." What else falls under these guidelines? I have no way of knowing until I do something and Maledict sends me a PM saying "I don't like this." All of this is in the posts above yours.

    We have been discussing why something that was precedented, multiple times, never made it into a rule or guideline, and the "well, we didn't think people would do it" line of reasoning is pretty thin when the reason we're discussing this now is because people have done it in the past. So long as an "implicit" set of guidelines exists, it spits in the face of any "actual" guidelines.

  4. #24
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Maybe you should read these forums then. Because the topic has been discussed repeatedly, and I even linked Voca's post for you. And enough people have commented in that thread saying you shouldn't do it either.

    And yes, when you do something that isn't allowed I will PM you about it. And when you reply back saying your just going to ignore what I'm saying "because it's not in the rules", of course I'm going to make it explicit - I would expect any of the other mods to. You seem to think you've won some great point by making me do this - all I can see is that you caused totally unnecessery drama based on something that *everyone* knows we don't do as moderators. Thanks for adding more stress to my sunday afternoon because you enjoy trying to score points on Graffes.

  5. #25
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaudShatterglass View Post
    So long as an "implicit" set of guidelines exists, it spits in the face of any "actual" guidelines.
    There are two paths you can take from this point:

    1) any and all existing implicit guidelines should be abolished, because they undercut the legitimacy of the explicit guidelines
    2) any and all existing implicit guidelines should be formalized and stated as explicit guidelines, so that everyone knows what's what.

    Which path are you advocating here?

  6. #26

    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maledict View Post
    I can't think of any. To be honest, I'm still perplexed by why this was an issue in the first place, but it's all up there. I guess moderators expect the contents of the mod forum discussion to remain private so folks can chat frankly and freely in there when needed? (Which is about twice, three times a year it seems!).
    So they can gossip and use it as a mutual butt kissing support group.

  7. #27
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by DmitrytheWizzy View Post
    So they can gossip and use it as a mutual butt kissing support group.
    Yah except for that whole part where you were a mod, poked your head in, and notified people that there wasn't anything spooky in there for people to worry about. I guess now that you apparently can't see what's going on in there then spooky things must be happening again.

  8. #28
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by DmitrytheWizzy View Post
    So they can gossip and use it as a mutual butt kissing support group.
    What? I couldn't hear you over all the wet lip-smacking noises around me and the emo outrage.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaudShatterglass View Post
    Ninetoes, you're being distracted by the minor point and missing the major one. I'm absolutely not confused over my actions or the resulting reaction, I'm using this incident to illustrate the fundamental hypocrisy of our rules/guidelines system. So long as there is an "implicit" ruleset, having a published ruleset is meaningless.
    I was one of the people who pushed for having moderator guidelines, and the reason for them was not to offer a comprehensive set of rules to instruct moderator behavior. My goal was a system that would guard against knee-jerk bans while giving advice to assist judgment calls on other issues. The knee-jerk prevention was mostly discarded in favor of the "X action => Y punishment" section, which I don't like but whatever. The second goal seems to have been applied fairly well. Except for the punishment section, the guidelines are helpful, not restrictive, and assume that the mods have good intentions.

    It's supposed to be something you can refer to when there's a question about how to handle an issue. It's not supposed to be an exhaustive list of things a mod can and cannot do under all possible circumstances (even "implicitly"), to be used to logically prove moderator fuck-ups.

    "Reports should be kept private" is a reasonable guideline. It's been voted on before and it's clearly what people want. It makes sense to add it here. But it isn't something that should necessarily been known ahead of time.

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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maledict
    I shouldn't have to spell out every single detail of every prohibited and allowed action, but apparently we have to.
    Inspection of moderator guidelines shows very little language that suggests they are about allowing and prohibiting behavior at all. Most of it is "moderators should..." or "if a moderator believes" with one "moderators may" and a single "moderators are prohibited."

    If we want to set up a bunch of rules so that we can punish moderators then what we have should probably be scrapped. I think that's a terrible idea, though.

  11. #31
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    I would agree. It's impossible to prescribe everything, and generally we rely on common sense and folks making a judgement call on what they should and shouldn't do.

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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grindel View Post
    Yah except for that whole part where you were a mod, poked your head in, and notified people that there wasn't anything spooky in there for people to worry about. I guess now that you apparently can't see what's going on in there then spooky things must be happening again.
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  13. #33
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    How about

    If there is a moderator vote (on whatever topic) and the results of which moderator voted which way are not made public, individual moderators are not allowed to publicly reveal which way they voted.

  14. #34
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Voca has said in the past that mods cannot call each other out on votes, but that they can say how they personally voted.
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  15. #35
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    There's not much difference between one mod calling out another mod and all mods but one each saying how they voted. Or say it was a 5 vs 3 result and the 3 each state how they voted, that tells everyone how the other 5 voted.

  16. #36
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by Niellya View Post
    There's not much difference between one mod calling out another mod and all mods but one each saying how they voted. Or say it was a 5 vs 3 result and the 3 each state how they voted, that tells everyone how the other 5 voted.
    I guess the same could be said for any voting system. If I want to keep my vote private in a general election but the other 100,000 people who voted don't, my vote can be deduced. Still doesn't mean my vote should automatically be made public though.

  17. #37
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharrow View Post
    I guess the same could be said for any voting system. If I want to keep my vote private in a general election but the other 100,000 people who voted don't, my vote can be deduced. Still doesn't mean my vote should automatically be made public though.
    I'm not saying it should be made public. I'm saying that if the directive exist that someone else can't directly make your vote known publicly, they should be able to do it indirectly either.

  18. #38
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Then you'll have to lobotomize the smart ones. They have ways of figuring out stuff you don't want them to! With their BRAINS!

  19. #39
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Quote Originally Posted by Niellya View Post
    I'm saying that if the directive exist that someone else can't directly make your vote known publicly, they should be able to do it indirectly either.
    ok, I sometimes post drunk too, but I don't understand what you're saying here.

    Did you mean that if someone can't make your vote known directly then they shouldn't be able to do so indirectly either? Yeah, nice idea. How would you achieve that?
    Actually, how does your point further translate to the situation under discussion, that of keeping "banning" votes private or forcing them to be public?

    I'm guessing you're European (as am I!) and I'm used to posting on boards where English isn't the first language so please feel free to restate your point in other words as it's lost on me as stated pretty much.

  20. #40
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    Re: Moderation Guidelines (20/09/2008)

    Well, the thing with nobody being allowed to make their votes public is that sometimes, it really helps. For instance, the Dmitry ban vote. I made my vote public mainly to stop all the bickering and argument, plus if I was going to be voting no and taking the chance of being proved wrong, and an idiot, then I needed to (pardon the expression) man up and admit what I did. Had I not been allowed under the rules to publicly disclose my vote, the debate would have continued way past the time it was needed, and there may well have been some mistrust and accusations thrown around by folks wondering who voted that way.

    In addition to that, to an extent, public accountability helps keep folks honest. Now, I can't say, "Claud was the only one who voted no, what a douche!" (Sorry Claud, you know I you) but Claud knows that there is a chance that folks will discover he was the one who voted no anyway, if all the other mods all say they voted yes. Like I knew it would probably come out (like it would have been hard to figure out anyway, but still! lol) who voted to not ban Dmitry. Basically, I agree that there is a chance of a mod being "outed" like that, but in the end, I don't think it is a bad thing.

    Now I am going to reboot my brain, that was way harder than it needed to be.

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