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Thread: [Health Care] Why I pay 75x less for health care than Tzak...

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by kzar
    It won't work for the United States, we have an aging population that is top heavy. When they retire they don't add anything to the medicare pot but take out a substanial amount (kinda like social security).

    If we did have something like this, I bet them dems would open it up to illegals, and the American taxpayer would be subsidizing 20mil+ patients.
    Non-working elderly already consume health care while retired, i.e. taking from the pot without putting anything back in. I applaud you for looking for holes in the system (criticism is essential in political decision making), but health care isn't social security. In all I've read, I've seen economist after economist saying how well it'd work in the USA, but have yet to see any serious criticism of the basic system. (aside from the Taiwanese quirks on the periphery, like privacy invasion) Ultimately, our government should research all of the options and set our best economic policy advisors to the task of designing the best system in the world.

    More critically, there is no reason that these countries should manage to do anything 4 times as efficient as us. Our political system is better, as is our political culture, our staff are better skilled, harder working, won't put up with crap service like they will, all the best doctors want to live here, not there. So, 4 times as efficient shouldn't be a question... 5 times as efficient should be on the table.

    What we don't need is defeatism. We should say, "How can we solve this problem?" and not, "It's hopeless! This problem can't be solved!"
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istari
    Non-working elderly already consume health care while retired, i.e. taking from the pot without putting anything back in. I applaud you for looking for holes in the system (criticism is essential in political decision making), but health care isn't social security. In all I've read, I've seen economist after economist saying how well it'd work in the USA, but have yet to see any serious criticism of the basic system. (aside from the Taiwanese quirks on the periphery, like privacy invasion) Ultimately, our government should research all of the options and set our best economic policy advisors to the task of designing the best system in the world.
    I will clarify. Every day more people are retiring and not putting anything into the pot but consuming services. The US is top heavy in turns of age distribution and there will be a point were the wage earners can't support all the takers.

    Second, healthcare is big money. I am not sure how it is in Taiwan, but companies here are not out to help people but to make money off them. It's a business and they tell doctors how and what to treat.

    More critically, there is no reason that these countries should manage to do anything 4 times as efficient as us. Our political system is better, as is our political culture, our staff are better skilled, harder working, won't put up with crap service like they will, all the best doctors want to live here, not there. So, 4 times as efficient shouldn't be a question... 5 times as efficient should be on the table. What we don't need is defeatism. We should say, "How can we solve this problem?" and not, "It's hopeless! This problem can't be solved!"
    The problem is the high cost of entry for doctors, from med school to insurance and you have insurance fighting them for every nickel. So you get a division between those in it to help people and those in it to make money.

    One solution I would like to see is government loans for pre-med students. After they graduate they would in a non-profit hospital for 2-4 years and the loan disappears. If they elect not to follow that path they can pay the loan off themselves. The 2-4 years would count as an internship and be under the supervision of an experienced doctor.

  3. #23
    I will clarify. Every day more people are retiring and not putting anything into the pot but consuming services. The US is top heavy in turns of age distribution and there will be a point were the wage earners can't support all the takers.

    Second, healthcare is big money. I am not sure how it is in Taiwan, but companies here are not out to help people but to make money off them. It's a business and they tell doctors how and what to treat.
    1) That's why we study economies that have more serious aging problems than we do. Japan / Taiwan have population aging problems that we won't run into for maybe 10, 20, even 30 years. Their rate of population aging far exceeds ours. So, these health care models will predict for us the problems the US may run into. Since the systems are already 4 times as efficient as the US health care's, it makes sense to use this model (it was, after all, designed for the US and adopted to Taiwan). If we expect aging to be a problem, we can look at Japan and see how things will be in 15 years.

    2) You have a very good point here. I am actually familiar with the healthcare as business as I have family who entered it in the 80s (though have exited in the 2000s). The insidiousness of it all - that's my personal experience with the people in the business side of it - is all in the system. These are good people, but if you throw even good people into a Thunderdome, two men will enter, only one will leave. Health care should be more focused on providing good patient care. You shouldn't have the same profit-squeezing mentality in matters of life and death, that you'd have in manufacturing iPods.

    I have met people getting giddy and excited over massive tragedies, i.e. FDA approved drugs causing people's arteries to explode, deeply haunting. Personal tragedy suddenly hitting thousands shouldn't be a cause for celebration, but with health care as big business, it is. It's a business opportunity, but the system, the incentives, the very warping of one's humanity, that scares the hell out of me.

    Moreover, it quadruples the cost of medical care.

    The problem is the high cost of entry for doctors, from med school to insurance and you have insurance fighting them for every nickel. So you get a division between those in it to help people and those in it to make money.

    One solution I would like to see is government loans for pre-med students. After they graduate they would in a non-profit hospital for 2-4 years and the loan disappears. If they elect not to follow that path they can pay the loan off themselves. The 2-4 years would count as an internship and be under the supervision of an experienced doctor.
    You bring up another very good issue! The cost of education. Medical school and law school are incredibly expensive, and I think this has caused a lot of problems: legal and medical services are outrageously expensive. The economic model says that if you have to make big sacrifices to get a skill, then you should get big rewards for using that skill. Paying off debt makes this even more difficult.

    Medical school in Taiwan costs $5,600. I am not talking per term, I am talking about the entire professional degree program's costs for a 4 year program without scholarships. US Medical schools should still be better, if 20 times as expensive, but the quality of patient care here isn't. That should be another piece of the puzzle, Taiwanese med school grads aren't crushed under a mountain of debt.

    My thesis is pretty simple. The US should have the best and most efficient health care system in the world, no excuses, because we can do it.
    Last edited by Istari; April 18th, 2008 at 09:45 PM.
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  4. #24
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    It wouldn't work here in America. Any system that big just has to have a group of rich people profiting off of it or it just wouldn't be America.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istari
    Non-working elderly already consume health care while retired, i.e. taking from the pot without putting anything back in.
    Nonsense, retired people have ALREADY put in a lifetime's worth of input into the system, up until they retired the system just took and took from them, now they have earned their place in the queue. Looking upon these people as being parasitic on the system is Low-Time-Preference type thinking, it's behaving as if the past never existed, as if each and every one of those retirees didn't put a huge portion of their incomes into this system.

    If you want to know who the parasites are who have stolen your money, look for the people administering the programs who borrowed money from it for other purposes, or to the federal government that has the Constitutional authority and responsibility for coining our money and which has deliberately diluted its value with inflation. THOSE are the parasites, the takers who do not give. Retired people have EARNED everything they have, through hard work, they paid into the system at the front end.

  6. #26
    Alikat is ALWAYS WRONG!*







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    Last edited by Istari; July 12th, 2010 at 11:25 PM.
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    The fortunate is seldom satisfied with the fact of being fortunate. Beyond this, he needs to know that he has a right to his good fortune.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladius
    It wouldn't work here in America. Any system that big just has to have a group of rich people profiting off of it or it just wouldn't be America.
    Wow, that's the best description I've read about Managed Care in a loooong time.

    We already have people profiting off our healthcare system.

    I've been an RN since 1985. I've seen health care decline to the point where doctors aren't treating patients anymore, insurance companies are. And they live by "less is best". You've got companies like Humana and Aetna making a hell of a lot of money off people. They charge ridiculous premiums and microscope every treatment modality, question every MD visit, every Rx made.

    We need a change in this country and we need one fast. People are dying to poor or inaccessible health care.

    Oh and don't even get me started on providing illegals health care lol. That's not a problem with the system. That's a problem with the goverment failing to enforce immigration rules. We're just simply stuck with the bill.

  8. #28
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    You bring up another very good issue! The cost of education. Medical school and law school are incredibly expensive, and I think this has caused a lot of problems: legal and medical services are outrageously expensive. The economic model says that if you have to make big sacrifices to get a skill, then you should get big rewards for using that skill. Paying off debt makes this even more difficult.

    Medical school in Taiwan costs $5,600. I am not talking per term, I am talking about the entire professional degree program's costs for a 4 year program without scholarships. US Medical schools should still be better, if 20 times as expensive, but the quality of patient care here isn't. That should be another piece of the puzzle, Taiwanese med school grads aren't crushed under a mountain of debt.
    That's a rather big missing piece of the puzzle.

    Why is education in the US so expensive?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Grindel
    You guys who think there isn't already such a database in profit-seeking hands tickle the daylights out of me.
    It's coming but it's not there yet by any means. I deal with medical records all the time.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istari
    Alikat is more right than anyone who has ever been right in the history of correctness.
    Signatured....

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goladus
    That's a rather big missing piece of the puzzle.

    Why is education in the US so expensive?
    Sports. That would be my guess. In America, colleges are sports corporations that just happen to also hold classes.

  12. #32
    The Red Wizard

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    The true and ultimate sad fact of this entire mess is that you have an industry being backed by the government that actively profits from the suffering of other human beings.
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    "Goddamn chain of command. Everyone lower than me is an idiot, and everyone higher has his head up his ass."-Black Mage
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  13. #33
    Right now it seems to be that a college or grad school is spending $50,000 per head every year on students, if the school doesn't cover a big part of that, then the cost winds up to be often $40,000 annually. Sports is one theory, research is another. Schools' reputation comes down to whether they have good research or sports, not whether they educate anyone. US schools are largely private, so the competition for good research drives up tuition prices tremendously. That's just a pet theory, the whole issue seems to have gotten little attention.

    I've read that US government tuition subsidies just raise expenditures as well. That seems to have a grain of truth. Harvard's tuition is $32,000/yr while the endowment is 26 BILLION dollars. But every few years they just increase that tuition. I figure, if you get accepted to harvard, you are going to pay 30k a year and deal with it. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of price competition among colleges, they just raise tuitions every so often. Students feel forced to accept the loans.

    Even worse, as a famous princeton study found (which I would have to dig for, but I've seen it referenced repeatedly), students from the elite colleges versus just "more selective" colleges are no more successful over the courses of their lives. The apparent quality of the academic education has no actual effect on the quality of education received.

    The whole university system seems, to me, extremely inefficient at decision making and creating huge social problems. School shouldn't cost an arm and a leg, the current disincentive to enter school, and incentive to charge big bucks when you're done (especially medical, law school) is just a huge social problem that should be tackled.

    I am sure the problem is deep, and institutional. The decision making process is totally out of whack.
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    The Aggro Test Thread

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  14. #34
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    Why do doctors want to work in the USA? that is simple question with a simple answer: Money/Kapitalism.

    In the USA, as a decent MD, you can ask your own prices for services and people that need it are willing to pay for it. This while you have insurance companies worship you and Farmacist-Lobbyists humping your leg. You make a fortune if you are decent to good.

    While in socialists healthcare states, you work for the state (a hospital) at a fixed pay rate and fixed hours and only the very bests can afford going solo and rent operating rooms etc for special things that are outside the common treatments, even though those treatments can be get 2 weeks later through common social healthcare.
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  15. #35
    socialism is bad m'kay it's worth any sacrifice of life to stop socialism m'kay
    Istari, Wizard

    The Aggro Test Thread

    The fortunate is seldom satisfied with the fact of being fortunate. Beyond this, he needs to know that he has a right to his good fortune.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istari
    socialism is bad m'kay it's worth any sacrifice of life to stop socialism m'kay
    Oops sorry, Forgot that you are Americans.

    We Europeans learned that differently:
    Communism is bad m'kay it's worth any sacrifice of life to stop Communism m'kay


    And we also learned that socialism, a governing structure for being social, is something left over from Christianty. Something about taking care of those in need and other biblical jezus stuff. Since the USA is a seculair state, anything that can be connected to Jezus is inherintly evil and bad, therefore no Socialism for Americans.
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  17. #37
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    Re: [Health Care] Why I pay 75x less for health care than Tzak...

    Branaman
    America is in tussle with religious maniacs who want to take over at the behest of fascist/corporate manicas using them as shock troopers, meanwhile many Americans are completely sidelined by all the nutters in power. A tale of two nations

    "Dominionism", the most dangerous religious maniacs ain't the Iranians or whatever, who don't have several thousand nukes
    Come one, the nutwhackers who just kludged their country up, in charge of nukes?! We're screwed !

  18. #38
    The girly mage
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    Re: [Health Care] Why I pay 75x less for health care than Tzak...

    Holy thread necro.


  19. #39
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    Re: [Health Care] Why I pay 75x less for health care than Tzak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyrie View Post
    Holy thread necro.
    Holy shit, WTF?
    I never noticed it was old, the thread was up top, so I assumed Bran's post was recent without checking the date.
    Did a spammer hit and got zapped leaving thread "recent"?

  20. #40
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    Re: [Health Care] Why I pay 75x less for health care than Tzak...

    Were you soaking in your hot tub time machine again?

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