Toyota 'Reviewing' Key Fob Remote Start Subscription Plan After Massive Blowback
Hope Toyota takes it in the teeth for this.
I still do not grasp attaching DLC to the keyfob as that has usually been the free method of doing everything and the app is what costs you money to do things. That is how OnStar works at least on GMs, You do not need it to do the keyfob functions.
DLC isn't being attached to the keyfob - it's being attached to the control module that enables/disables remote start. It's just unfortunate that the signal from the keyfob is being routed through that control module, instead of just bypassing it entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by FilanFyretracker
That being said, even the ability of the keyfob to send a remote start command appears to be a surprise to (some of) the Toyota engineers, so it's not surprising that they didn't foresee this complication.
Weird situation.
Sounds like an accountant pretty high up the chain got an idea and didn't have anyone around to tell him how stupid of an idea that was.
BMW Clarifies Its Rules Around Subscription-Based Heated Seats (and It’s Not Quite What You Think)
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Smart tech giveth and smart tech taketh away.
Clarifying building confusion, Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, aka BMW, released a statement that stresses the automaker will not offer heated seats on a subscription basis in the United States. BMW of North America doesn’t expect factory option purchase levels to change suddenly, so the policy will be in place for at least a few years. While BMW is selling heated seats for monthly fees in other countries, the luxury car company will still proffer a subscription-based app, ConnectedDrive Upgrades, on new U.S. vehicles.
The reason for the exclusion? U.S. BMW buyers will likely opt for heated seats upon purchase and there’s no need to build the infrastructure necessary for a subscription service.
“BMW customers in the USA demand a high level of equipment in their vehicles. Upgrades like heated seats are ordered on over 90% of the BMWs sold in the USA,” the vehicle company’s release said.
Monthly fees for front-seat heating cost roughly $15 in South Africa, $17 in Germany, $18 in the U.K., and $30 in New Zealand, according to BMW country websites. (Customers can pay for one month, one year, three years, or for unlimited service.) BMW faced quite a bit of social media heat on Reddit and Twitter. Dozens of posts criticized the car manufacturer for charging to keep rear ends warm.
“BMW starts selling heated seat subscriptions for $18 a month. The auto industry is racing towards a future full of microtransactions,” Reddit user chrisdh79 posted.
The press release does assure buyers that, if purchased, heated seats will remain operational for the life of the vehicle. Looking at current prices and the potential for tacking on any number of streaming monthly services, those nickels and dimes can add up quickly. Staying up to date on technical workarounds from social users might help avoid monthly fees. Either way, the ancillary benefits of upgrades may be essential for drivers requiring certain safety and comfort elements.
The first two U.S. BMW ConnectedDrive Upgrades are a dash cam function called BMW Drive Recorder and a BMW Remote Engine Start, each available through download. (The BMW Drive Recorder engages the cameras needed for the dash cam to connect to advanced driver assist systems.)
BMW will encourage customers to explore new software-based features with a short-term trial and promote purchasing apps either for a time period or for the life of the vehicle. New car owners can test functionality with flexibility and decide if they want to lay down the extra outlay.
BMW’s U.S. website lists a manufacturer’s suggested retail price for a BMW 230i coupe at $36,350. This is BMW, though, so add-ons will ignite this price.
Of course US buyers expect demand high levels of equipment, Its our culture in America that if we spend a lot money we expect a lot in return. And brand image also brings expectation of features, Me for example I would expect a luxury car to come chock full of stuff, I mean fucking hell if a luxury feature like heated seats can come with my pickup truck it sure as fuck better come on a BMW or Mercedes Benz.
Everybody wants to extract rents on everything they do because they can't imagine a business model that works without a constant stream of effort-free rental income.
My building is looking at the costs of installing EV chargers. The idea was that the electricity used would link to our individual units, so it'd just be a part of our normal electrical bill. What we got from strata council: a company that buys electricity from the provincial utility, then re-sells it to us to power the chargers. Because they get charged more if they try and buy at peak times, they have software in the chargers that "manage" the total output, keeping us from going over certain limits where additional charges would hit them (I think the cap works out to 3.5 kW per unit if all 60 are trying to use them, which is pathetic). They wish to charge us for the honor of using this software, to the tune of $20/month for each unit with a charger. For reference, an EV driving 50ish km's around town per day will incur roughly $25-$30 of electrical costs per month at standard B.C. Hydro rates. They want to almost double that bill with a mandatory charge.
Car companies want to make billions by charging monthly fees for features like heated seats — and electric cars makes it easier than ever
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- Electric cars are less profitable for automakers than gas-powered ones.
- That means auto companies have to make up that margin elsewhere.
- Automakers could be looking to upsell EV-buyers with added features.
Pricey add-ons could start ruffling EV-buyer feathers — but automakers might struggle to survive without them, a new study said.
There's a simple reason why: EVs aren't very profitable for automakers — and certainly nowhere near how profitable gas-powered cars. A Ford executive recently told the Detroit Free Press its EVs won't be profitable until 2026. GM has said it won't make money on them until 2025. And Tesla didn't bring in a full year of profits until it had been running for over a decade.
But automakers say they are all-in on electric, so they'll have to make that up elsewhere. That could mean selling their customers on all sorts of things after-sale, like subscriptions and additional features or upgrades.
Automakers have been moving toward more pay-for features, anyway — though consumers haven't always responded well. BMW, for example, got backlash for a heated seats subscription. On the electric side, Mercedes is offering an add-on "acceleration increase." EV player Polestar also offers a horsepower upgrade, though for a one-time fee of $1,195.
"For automakers, because EVs aren't so profitable in the first place, the bigger gain is in… generating revenue from that customer month over month," Alex Oyler, director of North America for SBD Automotive, said.
Subscriptions and additional offerings post-initial transactions are part of why automakers are especially interested in leasing their EVs. If they can get consumers locked into an EV lease at a reasonable monthly payment, they could capitalize on that to later upsell them on more functionalities — made possible through over-the-air software updates — throughout the contract of the lease.
While consumers might need to warm up to the idea, the industry might not have much of a choice, according to Deloitte's recent future of automotive mobility to 2035 report. The consultancy estimates 50 to 60% of future profits might be at stake if companies keep going on with business as usual.
So major changes are in store as automakers navigate shifting consumer behaviors, industry headwinds, and especially, increasingly attractive competition.
"To be blunt, the price for inaction by industry players could be fatal, especially in an industry on the move in so many directions," the report said. Changes, including vehicle feature subscriptions "are expected to unlock a variety of new revenue streams."
A profitability crisis could also mean car-buying changes
Until now, only EV startups and Tesla have eliminated the dealer as a middleman and strictly use direct-to-consumer sales models. But even traditional automakers are considering the idea, driven by supply-constrained profitability gains and "a long-term trend toward tightening margins on vehicle sales," according to the Deloitte report — largely due to the EV transition.
"This looming threat adds pressure on the traditional dealer model and threatens to impact the bottom line," the report says. Automakers "are moving to create direct sales channels to forge relationships with the end customer."
Indeed, some are teasing the idea. Ford CEO Jim Farley, for example, has mentioned shifts in the company's go-to-market strategy for EVs, including more online sales — noting Tesla's model as a guidepost for getting more profit out of each EV.
I call bullshit on customers needing to warm to microtransactions in their cars, Customers do not have to warm to being nickel and dimed. Corporate world has to know one hard fact, the customer is ultimately who dictates how things work not Wall Street.
I do of course at least initially expect the companies to ignore the customer. EVs are optimal for the nickel and diming of customers because they are a much more integrated system on the computerization side of things, While gas powered cars are still in many ways nearly 100yrs old under the hood. Sure the engines are all computerized and we have computers in the cabin driving everything, But nothing stops a feature from being added by just tapping off the 12v power system that is there.
Also some US states are already talking about banning microtransactions in cars, Basically with laws that state if the hardware is there you cant lock it out. All it takes is a few big market states(population base wise) like say California, NJ and NY and they cant even threat to just not sell there.
I'm not sure why we need legislation against non-compulsory subscriptions or microtransactions. If people don't want to pay for it, then don't pay for it.
I suspect the angle of the lawmakers is that if they are putting say the seat heating coils in the car and the button to turn them on, Than it should work when it rolls off the lot without any extra subscription.
I get what they're saying, but I'm having a hard time sympathizing with the view. Many companies in many industries provide price-differentiated levels of service or capabilities with the same delivery vehicle on the user end (e.g., ISPs, television providers, cloud storage, streaming services, airlines, to name a few) yet generally speaking, there haven't been prohibitions on any of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FilanFyretracker
Heated seats aren't a service. There's probably some form of legal argument that charging for access to a good (or to not having the functionality of that good remotely crippled/disabled) is not a valid legal contract (or at least that it should not be).Quote:
Originally Posted by PPatty
I mean, if you extend this model, you could end up with a bed in which the spring compression settings are remotely controlled by the company. Upside is you get custom settings for your mattress. Downside is that the company can leave the springs fully compressed if you cancel your subscription.
They once said software and computing infrastructure weren't services. But it turns out anything can be a service.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarbonius
Even cars. People already rent and lease whole cars, so it's not unreasonable to think that optional elements in cars can be subject to the same business model.
The article talks about mostly selling these subscription items to lease customers, where there's already a monthly payment to the dealership (in-house) or manufacturer. I think it would be a very tough sell to a purchaser, who would likely demand a significant part of the fees over the expected lifetime of the car be docked off the price up-front - and good luck trying to teach a random customer about discounting and net present value to drop that number to something reasonable. Or the customer just won't get the option, and the car companies will be in the position where they are providing an upgraded item on a car and not getting paid full value for it.
The lease model also has a fairly large flaw: leasing is attractive to customers where the vehicle has significant short-term depreciation. EVs aren't like that. They have long lifespans and seem to be holding short-term value exceptionally well on the used market. Hard to build a lease-based strategy when nobody wants to lease. I suppose the manufacturers could try to price the vehicles so high that leasing is the only practical option available, but between pricing themselves out of important government subsidies and customers just looking at the price (not the lease options) and deciding to get something else I feel like that's also a losing strategy.
I mean, none of that is true?Quote:
Originally Posted by PPatty
That's not the same business model though?Quote:
Even cars. People already rent and lease whole cars, so it's not unreasonable to think that optional elements in cars can be subject to the same business model.
You might be right, but it's also something that the market itself can sort out. I just don't see the need for a legislative solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delores Mulva
Yeah, a "Found On Road Dead" driving anywhere. I'll believe that when I see it!
Kidding aside, other than the whole self-driving thing, the thing that's furthest away from reality in this situation is a car that can lock you out of features that are also safety-related. A car that doesn't allow the windows to be adjusted? Or the seat? Lawsuit time, and that's going to eliminate the perceived advantages for Ford Credit of having such a system. Imagine someone who uses the car after their much-smaller spouse, can't adjust the seat back into the proper position, and ends up getting seriously injured or killed by the airbag deploying during an accident. And that's not even considering the security issue of having a car that could, theoretically, be hacked and bricked/driven away remotely.
Those push-to-lower, pull-to-raise buttons for your power windows? Made de facto standard by NHTSA after nine kids died from other designs over a ten year period, and an investigation found that it could be as many as a handful of kids dying to other designs every year. Less than one death per year, in a country of almost 300 million (at the time), was enough to prompt the creation of a rule banning something. And regulating this crap would be even easier than the button thing, because one of the biggest regulatory hurdles facing NHTSA is the requirement to take into account the costs to the industry to make their vehicles rules-compliant. For things like the power window button, that's usually accomplished by giving manufacturers enough lead time on the change that it's incorporated into normal product revision and redesign cycles. But this is supposed to be a feature that is included in every car and merely activated remotely. Unless the remote hacking thing turns into a legitimate problem, pulling it from vehicles is as simple as requiring all manufacturers to remotely disable the feature. They have to do that anyways for vehicles that aren't financed, so it's clearly something well within the normal capabilities of the manufacturer.
of course if its in a garage they might find some issues with automated repo.
By automated I had assumed they meant presets like how a car can adjust the seats based on the fob it detects, or lower the windows with the remote.
All I can see is intrepid advanced car theft rings figuring out how to access the car and drive it right out of people's driveways. Because the first people figure out how to do illicit access wont be reshuffling the cars at the Walmart for lulz.
I can see reasons why automated repo might be bad, but not sure hackers would be one of them. Feels like we've already gone way, way down the road of automation and remote operation in too many areas of life to be dissuaded from it at this point merely by the threat of illicit actors taking over.Quote:
Originally Posted by FilanFyretracker
VW wouldn’t help locate car with abducted child because GPS subscription expired
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A sheriff's office in Illinois said it was initially thwarted from tracking a stolen car with a 2-year-old boy inside when Volkswagen's Car-Net service refused to provide access to the tracking system because the car's subscription had expired.
"While searching for the stolen vehicle and endangered child, sheriff's detectives immediately called Volkswagen Car-Net, in an attempt to track the vehicle," the Lake County sheriff's office said in a statement posted on Facebook about the incident on February 23. "Unfortunately, there was a delay, as Volkswagen Car-Net would not track the vehicle with the abducted child until they received payment to reactivate the tracking device in the stolen Volkswagen."
Volkswagen Car-Net lets owners track and control their vehicles remotely. According to a Chicago Sun-Times article, "the Car-Net trial period had ended, and a representative wanted $150 to restart the service and locate the SUV." The article continued:
By the time officers say they paid the $150 and got the location of the vehicle, it had already been located by other means. "About 30 minutes had passed, and 'we had already located the 2-year-old child and located the vehicle before they even provided us the information, so it was at that point worthless,' Covelli said," the Sun-Times wrote.Quote:
The detective pleaded, explaining the "extremely exigent circumstance," but the representative didn't budge, saying it was company policy, sheriff's office Deputy Chief Christopher Covelli said Friday.
"The detective had to work out getting a credit card number and then call the representative back to pay the $150 and at that time the representative provided the GPS location of the vehicle," Covelli said.
Volkswagen admits “serious breach”
Volkswagen said there was a "serious breach" of its process for working with law enforcement in the Lake County incident. The company uses a third-party vendor to provide the Car-Net service.
"Volkswagen has a procedure in place with a third-party provider for Car-Net Support Services involving emergency requests from law enforcement. They have executed this process successfully in previous incidents. Unfortunately, in this instance, there was a serious breach of the process. We are addressing the situation with the parties involved," the company said in a statement provided to Ars and other media outlets.
The car with a toddler inside was stolen just after his mother returned to their home in Libertyville in her 2021 Volkswagen Atlas. The 34-year-old woman "pulled into her driveway and brought one of her children inside. She came back to her car to retrieve her other child, her 2-year-old son, when a white BMW... pulled into her driveway, behind her car," the sheriff's office statement said.
A man wearing a mask got out of the BMW "and struggled to get into the victim's Volkswagen, as she tried to keep her 2-year-old son safe," the sheriff's office said. "The offender battered the woman, knocking her to the ground. He then stole her car with the child inside. He and the driver of the BMW fled from the scene."
"One of the drivers ran her over as they fled, causing serious injuries to her extremities. The victim was still able to call 911 and sheriff's deputies immediately responded," the statement continued. The sheriff's office also said the BMW "was stolen in the past week from a car dealership in Waukegan."
Child rescued, mother remained hospitalized
Shortly after the Volkswagen was stolen with the child inside, "a person working at a business in the 2200 block of Lakeside Drive, Waukegan, called 911 to report they just saw two vehicles enter the parking lot, and the driver of one of the cars abandoned a small child," the sheriff's office said. The perpetrators fled, and the person who called 911 "rescued the child from the parking lot" before the boy could wander onto the busy roadway.
The woman's stolen vehicle was also found. "Sheriff's deputies located the stolen Volkswagen in a parking lot near Casmir Pulaski and Route 43. The vehicle will be thoroughly processed for trace evidence," the statement said.
The woman went to a hospital "and was in serious, but stable condition," the sheriff's office said on Thursday. Officers said they were still looking for the stolen BMW and asked the public to reach out if they see the car or have any information about the incident.
When contacted by Ars today, Covelli said the sheriff's office is still searching for the BMW and believes the car is still in the area. "The woman had some medical procedures on Saturday and she continues to improve. She remains hospitalized as of yesterday," Covelli said this morning.
you know, I think this is how I would get in trouble in such a job because id probably give a police detective benefit of the doubt and tell them the GPS location of the car.
Honda Puts Its Garage Door Opener Behind a Paywall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb2fEBW0oDA
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It appears that Honda has removed the garage door remote hardware from its newer cars and is replacing it with an app - which will be behind a paywall.