For people trying to picture what this drunk idiot did:
This is how two lives were ended.
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For people trying to picture what this drunk idiot did:
This is how two lives were ended.
And (not to excuse the drunk driver), but from his perspective he passed the first car and then saw the 2nd car move into the middle of the road to try to "block" him from passing, so he swerved to pass him on the shoulder instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delores Mulva
In reality, the 2nd car was moving to the middle of the road to give the cyclists on the shoulder more room as he went by. The drunk driver may not have even seen them at all until the last second.
Stupid, stupid, stupid, and a senseless loss, whether the cyclists were celebrities or not. Even worse that they were to be groomsmen in their sister's wedding this weekend.
Does anyone actually do that? I hate impatient drivers like this; the last thing I want to do is keep them behind me longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarbonius
As a person who now lives at the end of a 17 mile long, 2 lane road, I speak from experience, saying, there are as many local jerks, as there are idiotic tourists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wool
3 mondays ago, I was passing an RV going about 40 mph on a stretch of 55mph, and with just enough room to pass the RV before oncoming traffic would be too close, and blindspots would be prevalent (3k altitude gain along an 8 mile span), the fucker in the RV decided to speed up significantly, and the jerk who was tailing him and the guy who was behind me, closed their gap so that I couldn't get back in.
I was forced to accelerate, and thank fucking christ, the guy in the subaru coming toward me went to the shoulder.
People in cars are fucking assholes.
Yeah, I had that happen to me once, years ago. Ever since then, I accelerate aggressively before actually pulling out to pass so that I absolutely blow past the car I'm passing. I don't care if it might make me look a bit crazy; I'm in the oncoming lane for far less time and assholes can't screw with me, so it's win/win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinthalas Tigris
Fixed that for you. :)Quote:
People are fucking assholes.
Vic Fontaine exits stage right.
https://www.tmz.com/2024/09/02/james-darren-dead-dies/
Yeah, I'm too young (it feels weird to say that these days) to remember his prime as an actor and performer, but I have a great fondness for that DS9 role:Quote:
Originally Posted by FilanFyretracker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0fI6SR6Qow
I rewatched Badda Bing, Badda Band and It's Only A Paper Moon yesterday and I was struck by how much he made Vic Fontaine his.Quote:
Originally Posted by PPatty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZxLjNN3zpo
And this scene (One of the best depictions of PTSD ever onscreen)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDjg2K58YXc
I'll be seeing you Vic
James Earl Jones, 93:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/09/enter...ath/index.html
For almost any other actor, playing the central villain in the most iconic adventure movie trilogy ever would be the signature role of their career. For James Earl Jones, it was just another job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delores Mulva
There goes Professor McGonagall:
https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Culture/d...ry?id=27930122
He was a very cool dude. Really cool. He was fighting off the effects of Lyme Disease for close to 10 years. He really hung on there for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eremius
A towering (in every sense) figure of the 1990s NBA:
Hall of Famer Dikembe Mutombo dies of brain cancer at age 58 - ESPN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZUL9eugfKA
Dropping like flies this week..
Pete Rose
Does he belong in the HoF?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eremius
No. He bet on his own team. Because of that, his stats don't matter. That's the red line that a team member cannot cross, and he crossed it.
Meh, that's a black and white view of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delores Mulva
I could go socratic and ask you why you think the line is drawn there, but we all know why - it's to preserve the integrity of the game; ie. to ensure that players/managers don't throw/lose games.
But the simple fact is that there is no evidence that Pete Rose ever bet AGAINST the Reds while he was managing them. Betting on his own team would only have provided further incentive to Rose to do everything he could to WIN.
That's not corruption. It's simply not. And I think the Hall will eventually recognize that.
He was kind of a schmuck but I really believe he belongs in the HoF. His records as a player are really unparalleled.Quote:
Originally Posted by PPatty
It's more than that, although anti-corruption is certainly the foundation of the policy. Team personnel are never supposed to let on that they feel that they may lose a specific future game. They can be vague and talk about how it will be a tough season, etc. but they can't go out before a game and say "yeah, we're not winning that". Pete Rose didn't bet on every game; he confirmed that he wouldn't bet on the team when certain players (presumably pitchers he thought sucked) were going to play. What information is he giving to the bookies when he bets on his team some times, but doesn't other times?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarbonius
It's not the Hall of Stats. The steroid era players know all about that. The players in the Hall are supposed to represent the best baseball has ever seen, both in terms of statistics and the values on the field which MLB wants players to exemplify. Pete Rose fell short on the latter. I'm sure with time all but the people with hardline views like myself will forgive him. But I think that to do so is to forget all the reasons why the anti-betting policies are in place and reduce it to "black sox bad".Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerkahia
There are a lot of shady players who were and are in baseball, and some of them are in the HoF, with lesser stats then Rose. Hell yes he deserves to be in, his accomplishments are amazing and speak for themselves, plus he added a lot of intangibles that made the teams better. Yes he bet on the game, and his own team, but, to me, that doesn't erase what he did on the field.Quote:
Originally Posted by PPatty
This is also a black and white view, though. If you bet on the team you're managing, it creates an incentive to emphasize short-term results rather than making decisions with the big picture in mind. Think using aces rather than resting them in meaningless games near the end of the season, or running the bases aggressively to cover the spread or nail a prop bet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarbonius
I'm not saying Pete Rose did any of that, by the way, nor am I saying that he doesn't belong in Cooperstown. But there are reasons, beyond merely the W-L column, to oppose participants gambling on their own games.
Anyway, he actually he is a HoFer already, now that I think about it:
Pete Rose made history in WWE: How he became a WWE Hall of Famer (msn.com)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXJV7tDmock
Son, I'm just gonna tell you this one time: You want to keep working here, stay off the drugs.
John Amos, actor in groundbreaking TV roles, dies at 84 (msn.com)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoghPts44Ng
I brought this up with my buddy, and he mentioned something that I hadn't considered. Pete Rose's accomplishments are in the Hall of Fame:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonlainy
Picture of the display case honoring Pete Rose's hitting record.
But Pete Rose isn't. His accomplishment rose to the level of the Hall, but he did not.
So, sort of an insider trading/betting scenario (deliberate or accidental)? Sure, that's a reasonable concern. Do you really think that concern is enough to bar him from the Hall of Fame though?Quote:
Originally Posted by Delores Mulva
That's.. I mean, that's demonstrably false? The Hall has a bunch of absolute bastards in it, both on and off the field.Quote:
The players in the Hall are supposed to represent the best baseball has ever seen, both in terms of statistics and the values on the field which MLB wants players to exemplify.
Sure, and if it's detrimental to the team's success, he should be fired by the GM. But I can't see how you make that argument with a straight face, given your position on the Clayton Kershaw potential perfect game controversy a couple of years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by PPatty
EDIT - you've got a really good point with the proliferation of prop bets in recent years. That wasn't a thing back when Rose was betting, so it's moot for his case specifically, but that could lead to some significant fuckery if the manager had placed money on a particular prop bet.
Chasing history (e.g., a legacy achievement such as a perfect game) is the opposite of chasing short-term results (a bet).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarbonius
Yes. He knew the rules and broke them anyways. Nobody is owed a spot in the Hall of Fame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarbonius
You may be looking at a different way of parsing "values" than I intended when I said it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarbonius
Lol. I mean, there are a bunch of rule-breakers in the Hall as well (pitchers who were spit-ballers, scuffers, etc). They broke the rules of the game itself, and they were enshrined. I won't even talk about the history of sign-stealing, corked bats, pine tar, drug use, etc among Hall of Famers (see how nice I am)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Delores Mulva
So what makes this specific rule-breaking so much more special?
...is a cool-sounding quote that you can say as you dramatically walk away in slow motion from an explosion, while simultaneously putting your sunglasses on.Quote:
Nobody is owed a spot in the Hall of Fame.
But, uh... nobody said that anyone is "owed a spot" in the Hall, so.... what are you on about, exactly?
It looks like you may have lost the follow-up sentence that explains what you actually meant by "values" (probably due to some posting malfunction or something). Feel free to either edit the original post to include that missing sentence, or just make a new one if you'd rather, as I'm curious what you *did* mean by "values"...Quote:
You may be looking at a different way of parsing "values" than I intended when I said it.
Ha, unless he had a prop bet on Kershaw pitching a perfect game.Quote:
Originally Posted by PPatty
(or conversely, one on him pitching fewer than 8 innings)
Charlie Hustle and the matter of Pete Rose is a four episode documentary on HBO Max that I would highly recommend by the way. I thought it was very unbiased and pretty thorough. I learned a few details I didn't remember.
That's the first time anyone has ever explained it to me in a way that made me think he should actually NOT be in the hall of fame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delores Mulva
I was always under the impression that it WAS the "hall of stats" and by that measuring stick, he should be in it.
I now think he shouldn't.
Merrick, what Delores said makes literally NO sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merrick ap'Milandra
Since Rose clearly qualifies on the basis of stats, you can ONLY be talking about the 2nd clause of Delores' quote: "and the values on the field which MLB wants players to exemplify."Quote:
The players in the Hall are supposed to represent the best baseball has ever seen, both in terms of statistics and the values on the field which MLB wants players to exemplify.
First, Rose's nickname was literally "Charlie Hustle". For a game that preaches the importance of running out every ground ball, of giving 100% on EVERY play (even in the all-star game), Pete Rose was the literal incarnation of those values. Disagree with that, and thereby show me that you never, ever saw him play.
Second, Delores' rationale for excluding him from the Hall is based ENTIRELY on his actions OFF the field.
So, I have absolutely no idea what you could possibly mean when you say THAT quote was the one that convinced you. I must have missed the psychic network linkup you guys share, because nothing he said makes any literal sense, and he seems unwilling to clarify.
The other thing Delores is unaware of, or ignoring, are names like Ty Cobb, one of the dirtiest players ever and a huge racist. He was also one of the most talented, and is in the HoF. Tris Speaker and Cap Anson (as well as Cobb) were supposedly KKK members, and in the HoF. To me that is where your argument for on and off the field fails, because that's only a few names that could be mentioned that had a shady past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarbonius
Anson, Cobb and Speaker were inducted before the Hall of Fame added "character" to its criteria in 1945.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonlainy
Sure, but it's not like Anson, Cobb and Speaker are the only players with questionable character in the Hall. Players like Whitey Ford and Gaylord Perry were brazenly doctoring the ball in-game, well after the character clause was added. We can look at all the Hall players who took amphetamines or were alcoholics or wife-beaters as well; sticking our fingers in our ears and pretending they don't exist just because they are inconvenient to our argument is dishonest at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by PPatty
EDIT - conversely, using the character clause to exclude someone like Curt Schilling, based on his politics (and on him apparently becoming an asshole) AFTER finishing his playing career, is... weird?
I've been thinking about this general argument for many things lately. Both on and off "the field."Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarbonius
Two completely different forms of entertainment, and two completely different means of medium as well as use or lack of a team.
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
Do we remove Michael both times he's made it, because the allegations and settlements against him?
I've thought about this one as something of most extreme in interpretive biases. I've been dealing with some things at work, in our neighborhood, at my kids' schools, and a couple organizations that I am a part of. They're typical run of the mill social or administrative issues, mostly, but they're things that I feel could be resolved without needing to be resolved; a single individual has instigated them, in most cases. Their remediation is practiced, and ends up typically with just a slap on the hand. Each of the issues as vaguely as i gave them in the examples above, have all, *mostly,* panned out, and all have had very different results, and remediations of their own.
These tremendously isolated vortexes of judgement all have one similar themes of, "what would the right thing to do, be?"
It seems to me, simply, that Pete Rose could be awarded into the Hall of Fame, as *he created a whole shit-ton of fame,* and he could have an asterisk on his character arcs and explanations for it. I don't believe Pete Rose would ever deny that he bet on sportsball. Not now, anyhow. And I'm sure his estate simply has a right to say, "no comment."
But I do believe Pete Rose belongs in the Hall of Fame, as he met or exceeded the qualification requirements, by tremendous amounts, and simply give mention to what caused such great contraversy, and provide the exhibit an explanation of how betting on played/managed/involved sports league is seen in this institution that wants to honor the greats.
Make everybody fuckin' happy.
Thanks, Tinthalas. You make a good point about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and you've got me reframing this a bit from a wider view.
So, rather than just attacking Delores' stance, I think it's only fair that I explain my reasoning behind wanting Pete Rose (and others) in the Hall of Fame.
I think idolization is a problem in society today (and yesterday, but also still today). Whether it's sports stars, musicians, actors, billionaires - the problem is the same. For many kids, if someone is Famous, that means they are someone to pattern their lives after. That's... a problem... for a lot of (obvious) reasons.
And it's just not true. Not at all. A lot of stars are terrible, terrible people on a personal level (and thankfully their awful behaviour is starting to become more widely known than it was in the past).
That being said, these people are undeniably important from a cultural standpoint. You can't deny that they exist. You can't pretend that they didn't have some significant influence on their sphere of society.
So acknowledge them. Recognize their achievements. But when you induct them into their respective Halls and Museums, you should acknowledge them as people; all of their greatness in their own fields, and all of their awfulness (or decency) as human beings. Write their FULL biography, not just a highlight reel of their best moments and most momentous achievements.
Put Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame, and MAKE AN EXHIBIT on his gambling, explaining who he was as a person, not just as a ball-player. Both his greatness, and his flaws.
That's what the Hall should be. That's what it should show. A true, complete picture of the game, and the men who played it - warts and all.
So that's why I think Pete Rose should be in it. As a complex person, with both strengths and weaknesses; character traits that both drove him to achieve greatness and also led to his downfall. Any true fan of the game should want to see that; not just a page of statistics and a plaque.
A few days before the rematch of the World Series he helped win, Fernando throws his last screwball:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/oth...63/ar-AA1sKEJ8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dqgtpqscT0
Teri Garr, legend from Young Frankenstein, Mr. Mom, Tootsie and other movies. She was always one of my favorites.
https://www.newser.com/story/358613/comic-actor-teri-garr-dies-at-79.html?utm_source=breakingnews&utm_medium=email&u tm_campaign=20241029&utm_content=22638658215323885 501&lctg=777119028
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9K9wiH2Lko
ooh dear godQuote:
Originally Posted by michellefisher1748
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjr4n2490r9o
Quincy Jones 91
He's another one of those i-thought-he-died-years-ago types.
Rickey Henderson being dead at 65 makes me feel ancient:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/bas...65/ar-AA1whUfd
Not only the greatest base stealer of all-time, but simply one of the most interesting and entertaining MLBers ever, in every way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIpxRs39DdU
Always loved watching Rickey play, and listening to him talk. You are definitely correct saying he was one of the most entertaining MLBer ever. He was also one of the best actual ball players ever, with a WAR of 111.
One tribute to Rickey called him “MLB’s first Advanced Metrics Man.” That strikes me as accurate — most of his traditional batting stats are good but not great, but his mastery of the little things was unreal, and his ability to maximize his talents second to none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonlainy
Jimmy Carter. 100.
/salutes #39.
https://www.cartercenter.org/news/pr...er-122924.html
Nick Hobbs died last night. Doubtful anyone would recognize the name, but some the face. I am named after him, my mother and he were childhood, teenage, and lifelong friends. He battled Parkinson's in his later years, but chose to never give up, and passed away as he went to sleep last night.
He was Johnny Depp's stunt double in the Pirates films, as well as Roger Moore's Bond, and often Michael Caine's roles in need of a double.
Just about every film shot with a medieval theme, including the Harry Potter films, he as in as a stunt double, coordinator, or sometimes as a support actor.
He had roles on screen with intention in 2010 Robin Hood and Tom Cruise's Valkyrie.
My mom and he, 1972.
Attachment 6993
Jeff Baena. Writer/director, 47. Suicide, self-inflicted gunshot wound. 1/3/2025.
Aka Aubrey Plaza's spouse.
Mr. Twin Peaks is dead. I seem to recall liking Blue Velvet, though I haven't seen it since I was in college.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/new...78/ar-AA1xkeTp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0hgFNxj8wg
Mr. Baseball, Bob Uecker, is gone. I never got to see him as a player, but according to Bob himself I wasn't missing much. :p His sense of humor was great, as was his delivery. His self-deprecating remarks about his career in baseball are hilarious. He will be missed tremendously by baseball fans, especially in Milwaukee. For me, his best role was the Cleveland Indians announcer in Major League, it was a critical part of the movie, even though a side thing.
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/b...ET_RID=5209557
Pour your chocolate shake from Big Boy's out for the Lynch.
Same for me. I watched that movie countless times lol. I'm sure he's IN THE FRONT ROW up at the pearly gates! R.I.P. Bob.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonlainy
double post. site seems sluggish as Hell.
If you ever enjoyed Doonesbury or Bloom County, pause for a moment to remember their spiritual godfather:
Jules Feiffer, cartoonist of acerbic wit and satire, dies at 95
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXm4NE7CFv0
Speaking of Pete Rose and the Hall of Fame:Quote:
Originally Posted by PPatty
Fay Vincent, baseball commissioner during three years of turmoil, dies at 86
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/26/a...berg-dead.html
Michelle Trachtenberg, 39,cause of death unknown, but possibly due to complications after liver transplant.
Man, I had such a crush on her after euro trip.
I never watched Harriet the spy, but I loved her in everything else I saw her in, and her Maxim issue was one of the magazine's best for surprise celebrity model choices.
Super sad :-(
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/26/a...berg-dead.html
Michelle Trachtenberg, 39,cause of death unknown, but possibly due to complications after liver transplant.
Man, I had such a crush on her after euro trip.
I never watched Harriet the spy, but I loved her in everything else I saw her in, and her Maxim issue was one of the magazine's best for surprise celebrity model choices.
Super sad :-(
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cewkkkvkzn9o
Gene Hackman, his wife and their dog. Found dead weds afternoon, fuzz say no foul play suspected. Historical weather shows lows in the 20s Tues into Weds so going to rank CO poising as a non zero chance due to a fault with a heating system or maybe some aux heat source such as a wood stove.
At least for now, news reports indicate investigators found no signs of a gas leak or carbon monoxide poisoning. Authorities are now saying the deaths are at least “suspicious enough” to warrant an investigation, which strikes me as "We have no idea why they died."Quote:
Originally Posted by FilanFyretracker
The door being found open is concerning, for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by PPatty
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqlyy1rld0ko
well nix the CO prediction and they had also been dead possibly 10 days before being found. The full tox screen will still take time to come back though, But still so far no visible signs of foul play. We are still at the stage of Whatdunnit instead of Whodunnit.
https://www.cbssports.com/boxing/new...es-big-legacy/
George Foreman. Legend in the ring, and in tabletop grilling(thanks to his success in the ring)
Will always be Rumble in the Jungle for me. My God, what a classic.Quote:
Originally Posted by FilanFyretracker
If he could have developed his ring acumen 20 years earlier than he did, he might have become the greatest heavyweight of all time. But I guess being the greatest grill salesman of all time worked out well.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/act...ts-2025-04-02/ Val Kilmer 65
I didn't think he was a terrible Batman, but he'll always be remembered for Top Gun. He was an awesome Jim Morrison and Doc Holliday.Quote:
Originally Posted by FilanFyretracker
Glancing at his credits I also realize he did way more movies than I realized, heh.
IcemanQuote:
Originally Posted by Nerkahia
Mad Martigan
Gay Perry
Simon Templar
Chris Shiherlis
I loved his films. Even his not so great films were elevated by how fun he was to watch.
Wink Martindale, the benchmark for the game show host archetype
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...190627846.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Tinthalas Tigris
Complications from diabetes, (conjecture:) likely stemming from interactions between the anti-rejection meds needed from her liver transplant and whatever she used for her diabetes control
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...190627846.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Tinthalas Tigris
Complications from diabetes, (conjecture:) likely stemming from interactions between the anti-rejection meds needed from her liver transplant and whatever she used for her diabetes control
Has Trump submitted his resume yet...Quote:
Originally Posted by FilanFyretracker
No, but seeing as Vance was "brushed off" by the Pope during his visit over the last week/weekend, there is meme-ry going on that says Vance killed the Pope. But who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ackar
NORM!
https://apnews.com/article/george-we...1c89e8e9ba8cb1
Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk
Also the inspiration for Morn on DS9
Both of those men were jabbermouths. It's a wonder either show had to have additional cast members.Quote:
Originally Posted by FilanFyretracker
Ozzy Osborne, 76
First concert I attended.
I feel like Ozzy deserves his own thread.
Malcolm Jamal Warner, 54. Drowned while on vacation :( https://www.npr.org/2025/07/21/nx-s1...al-warner-dead
While Ozzy's solo stuff was good my money will always be on Black Sabbath for the best of his music. As hard and heavy as they were their songs still sounded smooth (for the most part). I read something yesterday that said Ozzy must have had a bit of the same DNA as Keith Richards, because he was living on borrowed time for quite a while. Definitely a rock and metal icon who influenced a ton of future head bangers.
Hulk Hogan 71
https://abcnews.go.com/US/hulk-hogan...y?id=102716760
Hulk Hogan's heal turn in WCW will always be peak professional wrestling for me.
It is the greatest heel turn of all time, but it was made possible by 10+ years of not only being the industry's top face, but one often heavily marketed to kids. There's no other wrestler before or since who could have had a turn of that magnitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dramadon
Ryne Sandberg. He was my favorite player growing up. Fuck cancer.
https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images...mlc7wawhgxfyxg
I'd like this post if I could.Quote:
Originally Posted by PPatty
While in college in the 80s, and then continuing after I graduated, I watched a LOT of Cubs games, and Sandberg was one of my favorite players to watch. He always seemed like a great guy as well, very low key and just having fun out there. Definitely a sad day for MLB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dramadon
Jim Lovell 97 (Apollo 13)
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cl7y8zq5xpno
Kneeeeeeeeeel for the late, great Terence Stamp.
https://youtu.be/fFyHTU8tg_0
Honoring Val Kilmer in Tombstone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PROvg10U-g4
Rip Robert Redford. 89.
Now Dick Cheney can assume his next job as Satan's aide-de-camp:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/...114150649.html
https://www.cnn.com/2025/11/06/sport...-kneeland-dead Marshawn Kneeland at 24.
Also, while probably not national level of celeb he was certainly a regional one. WMMR DJ Pierre Robert 70
https://6abc.com/post/legendary-933-...died/18086744/
Didn't see this one coming.
https://people.com/rob-reiner-wife-m...urces-11868856
Rob refiner and his wife
I don't think anyone expected Meathead to be murdered. But forget his acting, Rob Reiner's body of work as a director is remarkable both for quality and range; the adjective "iconic" is overused, but he's got at least four films that meet the criteria: This is Spinal Tap, The Princess Bride, A Few Good Men, When Harry Met Sally… are not just great movies, but exemplars of their respective genres.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinthalas Tigris
double post