thats also why most of the time mmorpgs drows are only dark skinned "normal" elves except in stuff like everquest
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thats also why most of the time mmorpgs drows are only dark skinned "normal" elves except in stuff like everquest
Face it, we all wanted to play wizards cause Gandalf was the shit. Come on say it with me now~Quote:
Originally Posted by Whizbang Dustyboots
Didn't Shadowbane have a race like this as well. Started with an I or something I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoLucifer
Well unless really getting advantages over good guys being in an evil faction , i dont see why there should be huge malus for evil charsQuote:
All too often, "roleplaying" means "I want to play a kewl evil race, but I want to have all the advantages of being a good guy."
wts fake evils
I just hated how in some games like baldur's gate give you malus without any advantages (except aside the fun of being evil) like increases of price , and rude npc answers as evil was written on the guy's face.... Bein evil should just be like in Kotor at some moment , doing dirty things and lying after without people noticing , or if you wish expose yourself to troubles and not hide and being an honest (stupid i would say) evil (lmao)
Thats why the forced faction kinda solve the matter , you being an evil guy "only"for the faction opposed to yours , especially if it is indeed branded as evil lol :D
Now this doesnt mean you should be forced to be a friendly guy in your own faction :p....
those are only ideas and i'm far from the first to think of it , but a good way for evil char roleplay can imho only be found with full pvp ...
Before i get killed wishing for pvp i explain , i wouldnt mind full pvp but with REAL and WORKING penalities and for ANY LEVEL of chars....
Now that leave open doors to many ideas... in theories i would wish for a system that would brand you as a wanted /outlaw guy . Imagine an orc killing another orc inside of a orcish city (no duel of course) in the lamest way logical consequence NPC guards and other players from the city wiling to punish him , now imagine the guy escape (even so that should be rare) , should he return there he'd would be wanted and dealt with again , now he still would let go of his murders habits kills two other ones elsewhere,or even in the same area) (the numbers subject to debate). now he would be wanted not only in the area of his crimes but on a "national scale" . If still not caught he would really become an outlaw unable to group with most people except others outlaws like him , wich could at any moment backstabs him . Now imagine again other players self specialising in outlaws hunting and collecting , aka bounty hunters . With high risks and odds , if still alive an outlaw could become the enemy of his faction , while still being enemy of the other , constantly the prey of bounty killers , NPC Guards , NPC monsters , not to mention other outlaws... IF well tweaked many lamers would think twice ... since becomming "clean" again wouldnt be easy and there would be real evil roleplay . Of course this is a system only effective when killing your own faction's people
Anyway the general idea is to heavily punish people killing outside of free pvp area or outside duels . And should they succeed into evading sanctions they life into the game should really become tough as hell...
Roleplay ex again imagine if even against all odd a group of outlaws appears as a new threat in a region , and imagine a whole group of citizens going to wipe them and that without any quest scripting or intervention of GMs !!! I'd would personaly find that pretty neat , even if again its pure theory , would need more thoughts into it , and prolly wont be as such in WoW or Near future mmo
It's true, most people that play evil only do it because they like the appearance of being a "badass." Like most people who wear leather jackets or buy motorcycles. They want people to believe they're badasses, but still cry like a little girl whenever their girlfriend scolds them (if they have one).
For me, I played a "good" ogre just because I wanted to play an ogre who was convinced he was a ranger. On top of that, the game itself (like others have mentioned) penalizes you more for being evil. But the biggest reason of all, is that you COULDN'T play a truly evil character in an MMORPG setting without making everyone around you crying and whining at you. If Numbuk was asked for a heal by a gnome who was in mortal danger of dying, and Numbuk told him to "Me no care if puny gnome dies! Me hate gnomes!" His reaction would not be "Forsooth! What a fine roleplayer ye be! I shall tell all my friends about your wonderful in character actions, and how true to character they are!" Nope. He'd whine like a little biznitch not grasping the idea of roleplay.
This, is my biggest concern about MMORPGs. People don't roleplay. Even people who believe they roleplay, usually don't 95% of the time. Why? Because it's ineffiecient. Most MMORPGers are more concerned about effeciency than role playing. It's the reason why people weren't spending points in "talents." It's the reason why people are trying to figure out the best class combinations.
I think we'll see some roleplaying going on in this game for the first 6 months of it's lifetime (and I think we'll see most of it from Battle.Net people, not ex EQers. Mark my words). After that, I am extremely pessimistic.
But I will say that I am looking forward to this game, despite all that (even if the Tauren models are far worse than they were in WC3. sigh). Whizbang's (great BFG reference) post did indeed excite me about this game. It does address most concerns I had about EQ in all the years I played on it. WoW will most certainly not be perfect. I expect to see every single race speak like every average cyber-chattter ("LOL!" "WTF?" "STFU!" "pw3nd!" etc) which is most unfortunate. I expect people to reduce the game to numbers and stats. But despite all that, it still sounds fun.
It wasn't until I accepted EQ for what it was and not what I was hoping it would be (and what it originally claimed it was going to be) that I started to have fun. I'll do the same with WoW. Hopefully it will be much easier to do that in.
Thanks guys for the info.
-Numbuk Rangerfriend
Look at your own day to day behavior... how much really distinguishes you from everyone else? Acting like you're in a movie all the time isn't really believable. Movie characters have highlights crammed into a eventful 90 minutes. MMORPG players have days worth of playtime.Quote:
Even people who believe they roleplay, usually don't 95% of the time.
Malus = malice i think right? Anyhow, just like in RL the ppl considered 'bad' or 'evil' aren't always looked too highly upon. I mean how often do you give devil worshippers a discount on your goods as a store owner? Evil race char's are supposed to do evil thinks. Yes its very stereotypical but thats how it is. On The other hand, itsh ard for good guys to get around evil areas too. There is no purely evil group in WoW Lore except the demons. Even the naga were just perverted by the magic, which was their own fault, but that does not make them inherently evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoLucifer
I wear my leather jacket because it makes me look good and my g/f loves it and wants to jump me everytime i wear it :pQuote:
It's true, most people that play evil only do it because they like the appearance of being a "badass." Like most people who wear leather jackets or buy motorcycles
No doubt. But do you really want to see an orc say something like "dude! you shouldda seen Hellboy last night! it was so r0x0r! I was like BOOYA!" It wouldn't upset me if this was an uncommon occurance, but it's not. Never is. Never will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goladus
I'm not saying people need to roleplay out their ears, but at least try to act like the creature you picked for a time. I really don't see the point of having different races if people act the same anyway, especially when how they act is the same as they do in online forums.
hmmQuote:
It wouldn't upset me if this was an uncommon occurance, but it's not. Never is. Never will be.
In my EQ experience, it was indeed uncommon excepting guildchat and PoK/Dreadlands zones. And ooc chat was a symptom of a bigger problem in Dreadlands/Lake of Ill Manners-type zones.
Average groups typically wouldn't talk about real-life stuff unless it was friends, and in those cases slipping in between RP and OOC was casual and fluid. And if there was a particularly hardcore roleplayer in the group, it would quickly rub off and people would play along. (personally, I'm definitely "RP-lite" as Whizbang would put it. I get into the game but tend not to bother with personal backgrounds or strongly-affected behavior.)
As for the real fantastic creatures, like orcs-- yeah, it's really hard to get people to play a fantasy race. But I found that, in eq, the newbie environments did strongly affect people's inclination to roleplay. 4/5 Ogres and Trolls I met in the first year of playing EQ spoke "dum," much like the NPCs in the relative newbie cities. In fact I found myself doing it on my newbie shaman, despite the fact that I was a 2 year veteran and was using the character as nothing but a mule to sell swords to vendors(saving travel time for my guard-killing main). I suspect that the WoW environments will be even better in this regard (I'm really looking forward to the Dwarf city). I fully expect to see scot-talking dwarves and Jamacian-talking trolls... and Orcs replying to each other with stuff like "Zugzug," and "Lok-tar." No, not everyone will be consistant, and not everyone will RP all the time, but I think it will be enough to maintain the atmosphere, so long as you don't encounter any real jerks.
Sadly, I create detailed histories for all of my characters when I create them. MIstyr had a detailed history, and when they took my name away without giving me more than 20 seconds to think of another one, my background died instantly. Nadiar is a human Priest/Paladin/"White Necromancer" (depending on the world) who tragically lost his one true love to the undead. He's usually pretty dark and brooding, and holds an intense hatred of the undead. He is motivated by his desire to release his lover's soul from her undeath.Quote:
(personally, I'm definitely "RP-lite" as Whizbang would put it. I get into the game but tend not to bother with personal backgrounds or strongly-affected behavior.)
I never created one for Gnome-Nadiar, because I never identified Nadiar as a gnome. It's weird though, I've spent so much time role-playing a gnome, I do it on accident now =(
I was looking at this $60 analog clock that operated entirely by over-large gears, and I almost bought it just to get more into character as a gnome. ( http://www.thinkgeek.com/cubegoodies/lights/601e/ )
I call that pure garbage lol !! In the first place unless you got some reputation , or did something wrong in his area , how the hell can a redneck store owner tell that you are evil on looks ?? Now if you are from a considered evil race it got some basis at least , but how the hell can the owner of a dump in some backwater village tell that you are a chaotic evil human and so adjust prices !!!?? Tatto face ??? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by silverblaze
Malus = malice i think right? Anyhow, just like in RL the ppl considered 'bad' or 'evil' aren't always looked too highly upon. I mean how often do you give devil worshippers a discount on your goods as a store owner? Evil race char's are supposed to do evil thinks. Yes its very stereotypical but thats how it is
Besides would such a weak store owner tell right in the face of some famous Bad mofo , that he stinks and will raise his prices ??? There are stuff called fear and intimidation , he would rather flee , call guards or give you discount just to see you off
Alignements should only be used to determine the personality of the char for background purpose and/ or his skills and classes . Until he really did something a newly born chaotic evil guy should sufffer trouble , especially from NPC wich shouldnt have any way to tell what the hell he is !!! Of course in many games i could play evil , but with more malus than anything ... Of course as a bad guy , when the prices are high , i could kill some random people , but would i get more money or better items than a good guy ?? no!! Would get more powerful ?? no ...
Of course in the system i described earlier , a pk would be branded as an outlaw and so wanted , but if he does survive wouldnt that make him an uber powerful guy ?? besides it would be a good idea to give that kind of people special quests (assasination , thievery , robbery etc) with items as a reward (being evil sure need sides effects , but you should and must get some kind of avantage when you do success into surviving!!)
Evil Must exist!!! Not in the way that any stupid pvp kiddo would be freely killing without any benefit nor sides effect . they definitely need to be ass-whiped but now if one should get away from punishement he should be able to survive (at least as long as he can :p) .
I hated how some mmorpg such as mu online designed you as pk (with your name in red) and leave you unable to buy in stores or to groups but still allow you to go on some site to reset and clean their chars , and then return camping at the exit of a village and killing random people , reseting again etc etc...
Again i doubt such a system will exist for now , and some people will tell me to "simply play undeads" . Its true factions are a good solution , but why as a really evil guy shouldnt i be allowed to have my own way and at my own risks ??? (especially with the forsaken , undead with a supposed free will and still by essence evil :D)
Besides this could lead again to fun and interesting gameplay ! Imagine a outlaw human warrior , wich learned quite a bite the other faction's langages , and some factions points wich(dunno if will be added) allow "friendly" relations with the hordes . Thus he could become a traitor , a mercenary of the horde , or even a spy for them , getting assassinations , scouting or robbery quests from them . Again i would find such possiblities pretty interesting....
Not to mention the counter-side of being an outlaw , the apparitions of players bounty hunting , tracking them down for money , or item rewards or simply fun . Or the exasperation of some village's folks tired of some organized bandits group and thus organizing a cleaning raid at their hideout :D
I realize that some people are PvP fiends. I'm not one of those people. If Blizzard decides to offer a few red (full PvP) servers, i'm all for it, but if the only option was full PvP i simply would not play. I never could get into DAoC because of the PvP emphasis, i'd play for a while until it was about time to go to the RvR areas, then i'd reroll a new character. Shadowbane was totally stressful to me due to it's PvP setup, and there were no blue servers available. Having to constantly watch for thieves and PKs was just not fun to me. Any effective MMORPG needs to allow for both these playstyles, and the easiest way is to make servers with different rulesets.Quote:
Before i get killed wishing for pvp i explain , i wouldnt mind full pvp but with REAL and WORKING penalities and for ANY LEVEL of chars....
I've been playing EQ before Kunark was released. And before EQ, I was a part of a rather popular text-based MUD. Popular enough that 1500 people logged on at a time was not uncommon (that's pretty huge for a text-based MUD). This MUD allowed PVP, but there were some guidelines. You could get in trouble if the kill was not warranted (role playing or otherwise). So mostly PVP was player governed, but the GMs did get involved sometimes if it was a big enough problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by luxum
I played this MUD for over a year and a half. You know how many times I ran into a PVP situation? One. One freaking time out of that entire year and a half. And that one time, it was consentual. It was a rogue who wanted to try out his new weapon or something (I had never met him before) and we made a rule that "whoeever bleeds first or is knocked unconscious loses." He hid, laughed, I hid as well (was a ranger, was one of my skills) and so we decided not to hide. I fired one arrow into his chest. It dented his mail, and knocked him to the ground unconscious for 60 seconds (I was one hell of an archer). When he came to, he said "You win." and we became good friends.
I liked the idea that this world wasn't completely safe and happy and full of rainbow brite joy. I liked the fact that theives could pick my pocket stealing coins and gems. I liked the fact that with a high enough perception I could catch them in the act, point them out of their hiding place, and if I felt like it, dispense some vigilante justice. PKing rarely happened here.
What made this place different than EQ or anywhere else? What is it about graphical MMORPGs that brings out people's laziness and unwillingness to even try to get into character, even just a little? Was because it was text based that the people were more "intellectual" or "mature"? I don't think so. I met quite a few immature people there. I don't get it. I don't get why people are so keen on getting an immersive world, yet go out of their way to not keep others immersed based on their actions and their sayings. I don't get how as a newborn ogre I couldn't stop outsiders from killing my guards and fellow ogres, and if I tried alerting other guards, *I* was the one who would get in trouble. I just don't get it.
I'm just ranting here. Yes, I am very pessimistic about MMORPGs in general. Once you've had such a utopian experience as I have had before, you become a little spoiled and few things can ever live up to it. I know some might say "Just play on a PVP server." That doesn't solve the problem, as you well know PVP servers are little more than PK fests. That also is not what I am looking for, and not what I used to have.
I really hope WoW can at least come a little close. I really do. Regardless, there hasn't been an MMORPG that I've been interested in (including Horizons, even when it was hyped to all hell) until this one.
-Numbuk Rangerfriend
well i'm not a pvp fiend , and while i wish for a good mix of PvE and PvP , i probably wont get into PvP with most of of my chars ...
Still i think that a world authoring PvP but heavily punishing them could be good ... as long as everything is really well tweaked and preventing the more possible , abuses...
I dont need to tell that PvE game also got their form of abuses , with players , no lamers using the absence of a "free" PvP system sometimes give them some kind of protection , shield especially when its come about looting , langages , and attitudes...
On the other hand i dont wanna see ever again another kind of lamers which await people outside of a non pvp zone and randomly killing , till someone stronger than them finally wipe them... :s
Faction war , free pvp areas and duel arenas are good solutions in some way but people forget that most of those people arent your competitive warrior , or people willing to battle a war , but just lamers searching and finding ways to piss people off to compensate for their maybe as lame real life...
This lamers annoying you in your PvE quests and loots and the one killing randomly at the end of a village are pretty much same guys (and we prolly all know people who do both in different games) . Such guys wont go on a PvP server to compete among power-users with uber char builds nor they will try to participate in any way in factions wars !! No they will go on the PVE ones and find another way to piss people off...Proof is that most of them will cry on forums for PVP in all the worlds
Even if not really interested so far by MMORPG scene (WOW's exception is ay again :p) , i can easily see most PVP servers for most games quite empty , and yet it didnt solve many issues about lamers in PvE servers... so basically that kind of player only switched ways of pissing people off...
Not to mention that its another way to keep a world static ...
Besides what of the players that simply wanna be able to get ride of nuisances wich would never duel in a PvE or simply wanna be evil doers (in the "good" way) without being forced to dive into a "street figher world" ??
With quite a light death penalty system ( and of course without xp losses , being killed by one of my faction) i wouldnt mind getting killed if i know that the guy would get the suitable punishement
I'm not a pvp fiend either. Like I said, I avoided it. To know it was there, to know you weren't COMPLETELY safe added an element of realism to this violent fantasy world. If people were PKing left and right and going out of their way to cause people grief, yeah it would have sucked. But people didn't. People got along civilly for the most part. Do you know awesome that was? :D
But, like I said, I still had fun in EQ. When I accepted it for what it was and not what I wanted it to be. From the looks of it, WoW looks to be even more immersive than EQ was. A big bonus. I'm just whining about all the little details I miss.
But don't get me wrong, I am definitely going to try this game out. But I refused to sign up for the beta. I'd rather play a game that is (mostly) bug free and one that wasn't relying on me in finding those bugs, and one where my character was going to POOF for certain.
What MMORPGs did you play, Neolucifer? I played on a blue EQ server for years and there was really not a huge problem with "lamers" for the most part, although it was worse at lower levels. CS dealt with the real pricks, and the server community was a large corrective force on people who were jerks. When your name gets around and you can't get into groups or a decent guild, that becomes a real incentive to play nice. As far as people who want to "get rid of nuisances" i don't see any way to allow that short of full PvP, and i submit that a red server for those who want to game in this way is the best answer, as opposed to forcing full PvP on the general population. EQ's blue servers proved that there is a large market for PvE or restricted PvP (arenas, duels) MMORPGs, yet bafflingly most of the 2nd generation MMORPGs were PvP oriented. You say you wouldn't mind eating a death so long as the other guy is "punished," but i and many others like me would. If my character dies, i want it to be because i lost to a mob, or fell off a cliff, or something else that's my own fault, not because somebody with nothing better to do than ruin other people's fun snuck up and killed me. That makes me angry, it isn't fun for me at all.
Edit: BTW the "PvP fiend" thing was a general comment acknowledging the zekker-type players out there, not really directed at anyone in particular. ;)
i agree , this isnt about an urge to murder someone , maybe i will someday . This about knowing in a violent fantasy world that ou cant always be safe . Besides this also a matter of freedom and choices , again its not as if i wanted to murder , i just like the idea of being able to chose . Walking on a road and meeting a pretty rude person , depending of my mood and his attitude would i try something onto him ??( again , i do know how many times i said it :p , with a huge penality risks) I probably wouldnt even think of it , as i walk past him , but knowing that i had a choice rather than knowing that you cant do a jack about him , would be satisfying enoughQuote:
Numbuksaid :
to know you weren't COMPLETELY safe added an element of realism to this violent fantasy world